Bill Chen - "The Mathematics Of Poker" Study Group

Fknife

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do not tell me where to be found in the public domain this book?

Amazon and probably most of the other popular online bookstores.

Ah so if you are assuming 40% equity then absolutely call every bet. But by the river do we not have either 100% or 0% equity?

That's actually a very good observation :) No, unfortunately it's not a draw-type of situation in which you get to the river and you either have the nuts (hint3: own 100% of the pot) or nothing. He pot bets all 3 streets and you always call with 40% equity. Your equity does not change.

Wait no you have to be ahead of only 39% of hands villain would play?

2:1 is more like 33%...but yea, 39% could probably do either :)
 
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deuceswild

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Ahhh isee since you have pot odds of 2-1 you only need be ahead of 33% of the cands he would play. I was going with either your hand wins or loses for the 0 and 100% but I was jumping too far ahead to showdown knowledge. Ya I'm aware of these simple odds just want to make sure I'm not missing something thanks for clarifying. Ooo if we make it that far would it not be an amazing exercise to include "what hands he would play" vs a certain vpip raise and 3 bet percentage?
 
Fknife

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Ahhh isee since you have pot odds of 2-1 you only need be ahead of 33% of the cands he would play. I was going with either your hand wins or loses for the 0 and 100% but I was jumping too far ahead to showdown knowledge. Ya I'm aware of these simple odds just want to make sure I'm not missing something thanks for clarifying.
So the bolded statement is correct. Now...can we make that calldown? :)

Ooo if we make it that far would it not be an amazing exercise to include "what hands he would play" vs a certain vpip raise and 3 bet percentage?

It would :)
 
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deuceswild

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If we are assuming 40% equity then definitely. Call all the way.
 
Fknife

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If we are assuming 40% equity then definitely. Call all the way.

It would be too easy (not my style!) if it was all just about comparing two numbers, which are actually given in the question itself :)

So...lets assume we are on the flop. We have $130 in our stack. We have two strategic options: (A) Fold, (B) Call-All-3-Streets.

What are the EVs of both options? (you can work in terms of Expected Stack Sizes at the end of each actions)
 
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deuceswild

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Well ev of folding is 0 so that means if I even have slight positive ev its a profit making decision. At every street the pot sized bet represents less than the 40% equity you have in the pot so yes call all the way. The ev correct me if I am wrong would be7% of the pot since you are 7% ahead of all the hands he is playing for these odds so by the river your long term positive ev is $19.90 dollars on average everytime this is played. Is that right?
 
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deuceswild

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Or is it the full 40% of the pot in which case the positive ev would be 108?
 
Fknife

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Well ev of folding is 0 so that means if I even have slight positive ev its a profit making decision. At every street the pot sized bet represents less than the 40% equity you have in the pot so yes call all the way. The ev correct me if I am wrong would be7% of the pot since you are 7% ahead of all the hands he is playing for these odds so by the river your long term positive ev is $19.90 dollars on average everytime this is played. Is that right?

Or is it the full 40% of the pot in which case the positive ev would be 108?

Yes, the EV of folding is 0 so if you were to fold every time to a bet on the flop, you would end up with the Expected Stack Size of $130.

Now, multistreet EV calculations are pain in the *ss, because you have to account for EVs of future actions/streets, and that's why I didn't ask eg: for the EV of a turn call :) Instead, you can just look at the EV of the whole "calldown strategy" like this:

The pot on the river, after you make the calldown, will be $270. Because you always have 40% pot equity, you own 40% of that pot, which is $108. And that's the amount which you will end up on average with, after making that calldown. Clearly, $108 is lower (you're losing $130 - $108 = $22 everytime you make that calldown) than $130 (after folding) and because we always want to pick strategies with the highest EVs - you should fold.

You can also just use a "regular" EV equation:

Ambur said:
Answer:
ev=(140*0,4)-(130*0,6)=-22$

It is not profitable!

So...it turns out you don't actually have enough equity to even get back your own money, which you're putting into the pot on each street. Because you would like to have at least $130 from the final pot on the river, you should have at least: $130/$270 = 48% equity to make that calldown.

So yea, I hope it was an interesting assignment and some of you guys learnt something new (and practical!) about making that kind of "light-calldowns" :)

Oh and just to prove that I'm not bulls**ting you, here is a screenshot from CREV which simulates such a calldown. Numbers are slightly off because MP's range has actually 42.9% equity. CREV displays EVs for each action (decision point) but it also accounts for future actions/streets EVs (so turn EV WILL depend on your river strategy). So...the river call is indeed +EV, but if you look at the flop EV (your entire strategy)...it's negative. And close to our -$22! :)


CRCalldown
 
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deuceswild

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Wow I didn't realize equity had to be so high to warrant calling a pot sized bet. So am I to infer that a heads up flush draw if villain is betting pot is never positive ev play? Assuming no other draws or overcards.
 
Fknife

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Wow I didn't realize equity had to be so high to warrant calling a pot sized bet. So am I to infer that a heads up flush draw if villain is betting pot is never positive ev play? Assuming no other draws or overcards.

Thats actually a different scenario. Here, you have a static amount of equity, it never changes. On the other hand, when you're on a draw:

a) your equity changes from flop to turn.
b) you will always be polarized on the river (ok, usually...there are times when you're chasing a flush draw but you hit a pair instead :)) so you won't always call the river bet and the times when you do, you will pick up the entire pot (100% pot equity).

So, chasing a draw (you either turn 100% or 0% equity) when you have the odds (or implied odds) to do that is correct - no doubt about that. I think that some people just thought about that calldown as if they were calling down with a draw hence that confusion...
 
Figaroo2

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Well is that not what I said to you originally...

Originally Posted by Figaroo2
Without working anything out if you have 40% equity surely you lose 6 times out of ten so how can it ever be profitable to flat call down with stacks all in.
 
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avner

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i looked for the book and didnt find it, can you advise of a similar one?
 
duggs

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Thats actually a different scenario. Here, you have a static amount of equity, it never changes. On the other hand, when you're on a draw:

a) your equity changes from flop to turn.
b) you will always be polarized on the river (ok, usually...there are times when you're chasing a flush draw but you hit a pair instead :)) so you won't always call the river bet and the times when you do, you will pick up the entire pot (100% pot equity).

So, chasing a draw (you either turn 100% or 0% equity) when you have the odds (or implied odds) to do that is correct - no doubt about that. I think that some people just thought about that calldown as if they were calling down with a draw hence that confusion...

And it hinges on them always betting, if they check and fold enough of their range we can also call down
 
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deuceswild

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Ah I see, I think what threw me off originally is that so many players on these forums just analyze the river. They examine the pot as though none of the money put into it was theirs. So they look at it as he made a pot sized bet. I have 33% or > equity on the river just totally obscuring the fact that half the pot was built of their money. Very illuminating.
 
Fknife

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Well is that not what I said to you originally...

Originally Posted by Figaroo2
Without working anything out if you have 40% equity surely you lose 6 times out of ten so how can it ever be profitable to flat call down with stacks all in.

I don't know Bruce, your "explanation" didn't sound good to me at first lol :)

i looked for the book and didnt find it, can you advise of a similar one?

There are no "similar" books or at least none that I know of. Sure, there are some other poker math books (2 of them have been already mentioned somewhere in this thread) but they are mostly very basic.

Ah I see, I think what threw me off originally is that so many players on these forums just analyze the river. They examine the pot as though none of the money put into it was theirs. So they look at it as he made a pot sized bet. I have 33% or > equity on the river just totally obscuring the fact that half the pot was built of their money. Very illuminating.

:)

And it hinges on them always betting, if they check and fold enough of their range we can also call down

Yea, so he would have to check/fold OTR something like:

x * (40% * $270) + (1 - x) * ($90 + $90) >= $130
$108 * x + $180 - $180 * x >= $130
-$72 * x >= -$50
x <= 69%

x is his betting frequency, so as long as he is check/folding more than 1 - x = 31%, we have a +EV calldown...
 
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rhombus

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Great question I was like easy call 40% better than 33% till I reread it a couple of times

So...it turns out you don't actually have enough equity to even get back your own money, which you're putting into the pot on each street. Because you would like to have at least $130 from the final pot on the river, you should have at least: $130/$270 = 48% equity to make that calldown.

I tried to rearrange the EV equation to get the above $130/$270 but abit rusty on algebra LOL
If Equity = (W*P)-(L*1-P) Then what does P=

Althought did manage to get =L/(W+L) to break even on a call



PS does SPR have any effect or can it be incorporated into the above when thinking about Muti Street EVs
 
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Fknife

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Great question I was like easy call 40% better than 33% till I reread it a couple of times



I tried to rearrange the EV equation to get the above $130/$270 but abit rusty on algebra LOL
If Equity = (W*P)-(L*1-P) Then what does P=

Althought did manage to get =L/(W+L) to break even on a call
(L = $130; W = $140)
PS does SPR have any effect or can it be incorporated into the above when thinking about Muti Street EVs

I've never actually looked at various SPR's in relation to that question. If we're assuming that Villain has to always make a pot-sized bet than I guess it's either a one or two street(s) game.

So, if his SPR is 1 - he just shoves his remaining $10 on the flop, then our Expected Stack Sizes are:
$130 ($0 EV) -> when we fold.
$120 + 40% * $30 = $132 (+ $2 EV) -> when we call.
(so calling is +EV here :) )

On the other hand if he pots the flop and then shoves the turn, we have:
$130 ($0 EV) -> if we were to just fold on the flop.
$90 + 40% * $90 = $126 (-$4 EV) -> when we call flop and turn.
(so calling is -EV here :( )

I don't know if it answered you question though :(
 
DrazaFFT

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Mart, i saw that you did the analyze of what the minimum equity we need to have for this call down to be +ev, can we do the same with bet sizes, meaning, what bet size would be better for us to call down of that doesnt change anything... If this was already discussed, im sorry for the derail...
 
Fknife

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Mart, i saw that you did the analyze of what the minimum equity we need to have for this call down to be +ev, can we do the same with bet sizes, meaning, what bet size would be better for us to call down of that doesnt change anything... If this was already discussed, im sorry for the derail...

Assuming that we always have 40% equity and he's betting the same fraction of the pot on every street?
 
DrazaFFT

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Assuming that we always have 40% equity and he's betting the same fraction of the pot on every street?

yea, for example he is betting half pot every time or 2/3, everything else remains the same...
whats the maximum bet size we can call 3 streets to be +ev
 
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rhombus

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yea, for example he is betting half pot every time or 2/3, everything else remains the same...
whats the maximum bet size we can call 3 streets to be +ev

Is 1/2 pot everytime



(80 * 0.4) - (35 * 0.6) = 11 BBs
 
Fknife

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yea, for example he is betting half pot every time or 2/3, everything else remains the same...
whats the maximum bet size we can call 3 streets to be +ev

Here, I just created it. I'm a fking Excel wizard!

(I assumed we have $1k stacks so that Villain can also overbet against us - not that I expected calling such a bet could be +EV for Hero :))

Bet sizes vs EVs
 
DrazaFFT

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Wow, just wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:congrats:

BTW thats was exactly what i asked, KUDOS Mart!!!!

im bit surprised how small bets needs to be to have this profitable...

kinda nice wake up call for a calling station like me :trytofly:
 
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rhombus

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Is 1/2 pot everytime



(80 * 0.4) - (35 * 0.6) = 11 BBs

Oops just realised I added the 45 to 35 for the win
(45 * 0.4) - (35 * 0.6) = -3

and 1/3

(28.148 * 0.4) - (18.148 * 0.6) = 0.37
 
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rhombus

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Wow, just wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:congrats:

BTW thats was exactly what i asked, KUDOS Mart!!!!

im bit surprised how small bets needs to be to have this profitable...

kinda nice wake up call for a calling station like me :trytofly:

arent we all till we realise the numbers. Guess its like a sale when we think we are getting a bargain till we get home and open the bag and its just a bag of S*^&
 
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