Figaroo2
Legend
Bronze Level
I have a pretty good handle on what good TAG stats look like but you never see any talk about the detailed stats of a winning LAG player...(like a mythical beast.... do they even really exist longterm?). Not that I've ever really gone out and looked.
As a result of all the recent study and twitch watching I have loosened my play and tried to get more agg so see if I can get paid off more but I just keep running into the nuts and or calling stations. Last night I went back to basics and won a 25nl buy in for the first time this month.
As a result of all the recent study and twitch watching I have loosened my play and tried to get more agg so see if I can get paid off more but I just keep running into the nuts and or calling stations. Last night I went back to basics and won a 25nl buy in for the first time this month.
D
deuceswild
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Hah wasn't referring to you fknife, but what figaroo just posted seems like a good summary. I was playing more laggy when I first started but unfortunately playing this style successfully seems to be very tied to how hot and cold you are running. Sometimes you just don't get the cards, and playing laggy means people fold less so unless you catch some hot streaks you are in trouble. I was playing 1-2 blinds at live games buying in for 2-300, I went hot, made almost 3000, continued playing laggy, dropped all of that plus 6-700 more. That was when I took a long break and started reading more cash game specific strategy. Almost all cash game strategy books recommend playing tag. But ya what are the stats of a good tag vs a good lag( if there is such a thing) and at what point do I assume total fish? Also I know you may have reference this before but what hands are these people playing?
Fknife
Legend
Silver Level
Personally, I don't believe in playing by a specific set of stats or following certain hand charts (I've said it a million times so you probably already know my approach to this
). I just don't think it's worth doing so. Sure, if you're playing too tight nobody will pay you off because you just...always have it. BUT if you suddenly start adding more hands into your preflop ranges, you will end up with much wider (and weaker!) ranges postflop and if you don't know what to do with them, you will just be losing money. I think that it just comes with experience/knowledge/skill/studying (like if you improve your postflop game, you will naturally be more comfortable with playing more hands) . So I treat those labels (TAG, LAG etc) more as an indicator of what I can expect from that specific type of opponent. IMO books that present/recommend a specific strategy of playing rather than teaching how to think about poker (more of an analytical/math approach) become very quickly outdated. I don't know what are the current stats for TAGs/LAGs etc tbh, something like 17/14 few years ago was considered a TAG whereas nowadays it's most likely a NIT (at least for 6max). Maybe someone playing with a VPIP in a range of 24-20 is a TAG whereas a LAG would be probably playing around VPIP of 30 these days. Those are just my guesses though.
As far as weaker players go...they usually have a much higher VPIP (> 35%) and/or a big gap between it and a RFI stat. (+ standard stuff such as a weird stack size, limping etc).
Thats a very broad question. Most people construct their ranges keeping in mind also things such as: playability rather than only Hot-Cold equity alone. I gave an example of how a Cold Call stat can be interpreted few posts ago, we can go into more detail if you want.
Thats a problem: by playing looser, you end up with much wider (and weaker) ranges on average. I think that one of the first steps you can take, is to look at your Turn play (specifically: double barrel opportunities). At least that was one of the advice I had been given once (and indeed it is a good starting point).
Fknife
Legend
Silver Level
Why?
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deuceswild
Enthusiast
Silver Level
You mentioned it at the end of your last comment I'm just not sure exactly what you mean. Sry for delay looooong weekend my friend turned 30. We celebrated his oldness like we were 23. In any case, ya you mentioned double barrel opportunities. Are there any guidelines you were referring to?
Fknife
Legend
Silver Level
No worries, I don't have much time lately either.
Basically, I'm thinking about an exploitive strategy for playing Turn (and Flop ofc because it's all connected to each other) when I don't have a clear valuebet AND Villains' ranges are wide.
The first one is kinda intuitive - if I have a hand that I can bet for value on the Turn (and/or the Flop), then there is no problem. Problem arises when I don't have a value bet - which is often the case because...well, it's hard to make a hand in Holdem
. So what I want to do, is look at each hand in my Flop range and before I make a cbet, I want to look at various possible Turn cards (in terms of categories ofc, like: an overcard, a card bringing a second flush draw, a straight card, a blank etc) and have a plan for each one of them - so basically what I'm saying is: I don't want to bet the flop and give up on the turn too often because if that's the case - I'm just better off not betting the flop at all.Moving on to the second requirement: I want Villain's preflop/flop and turn ranges to be wide. So if someone is folding a lot on the flop (eg: FCB > 60%) I can just switch to another exploitive strategy of cbetting with basically ATC (within common sense ofc) and not trying to do anything on the Turn because I know his range will be extremally strong there (unless ofc I have a clear value bet; also he does not have to fold a lot on the flop to have a strong range on the turn - he can just have a strong range already preflop). Thats why I want Villain's turn range to be wide so that I can apply lots of pressure to his weak holdings while also keeping in mind various population tendencies and common thought processes (you can get an idea of those browsing Hand Analysis forums) such as: "nobody likes to call 3 barrels on dry boards with a second pair hand without any reasonable chances of improving".
One way of approaching it is to pick hands with equity so that there are lots of different Turn cards on which you can continue your aggression. Hands like: flush/straight draws, gutshots, overcards, backdoor draws (one over and a backdoor flush draw
) etc and because of the math, you can actually bluff more on the Flop compared to the Turn or River. Also, you can cbet the flop with a flush draw and get there on the turn in which case you're no longer thinking in terms of: "which part of Villain's range I'm now targeting with that Turn card" - now you are just value betting.Another thing to consider when barreling Turn is your River play: "good" River cards and blockers (you don't want to (block) bluff with hands you want Villain to fold).
Those are just various ideas I'm throwing around, I don't have a definite answers and I'm constantly working on it. For the most part it's just knowing what to expect and what part of their range you are actually targeting: nobody will fold Jx on most turns on a J62 board - people just don't do it. BUT I think you can push someone off some medium PPs, second pairs, random floats, that people will actually have in that spot, on most Turn overcards. A Turn pairing the board is interesting because in general it increases the value of already made hands (same goes with unccordinated Turns - blanks) so... it's hard to push someone of 88-TT on a J62 J Turn (you might have to fire again on decent Rivers to do it).
I actually watched a training video about barreling some time ago and the coach gave some examples of "boards/runouts good for double barreling". I can write those examples here but they are really too general IMO (like barreling a blank on a paired board won't really fold out most hands which called the flop etc).
Fknife
Legend
Silver Level
Fknife
Legend
Silver Level
I've been busy the entire last week (looking for a job and that kind of stuff) so you (and everyone else who is still here) can move on to the next chapter. I will hop in and post those examples/summaries as soon as I find a bit of time.
A
ABBABEER
Rising Star
Silver Level
I a late comer to this thread but really find it interesting. It has always been interesting to me that many of the big name poker pros are college educated in subjects that require a heavy dose of math skills. Anything I learn and retain here will surely be of value.
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deuceswild
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Ok np, I'm still here , will check in from time to time, good luck with the job hunt. Ya Abba its been a great thread so far. Some really good examples in the previous post for general game play, even if we don't continue I have learned quite a bit already BUT I really hope we can keep this alive. Thanks much to fknife already!
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rhombus
Legend
Silver Level
some of the graphs and charts just went over my head
Prefer the maths to do with real hand histories, i.e.
If 3 Bet with what hands can you call or 4 bet light and how does it change dependant on player and stack size
Check Shoving on Flop or Turn taking into account SPR (although not supposed to use on turn) and equities.
Value betting Turn or River at what point do you Bet Fold
Prefer the maths to do with real hand histories, i.e.
If 3 Bet with what hands can you call or 4 bet light and how does it change dependant on player and stack size
Check Shoving on Flop or Turn taking into account SPR (although not supposed to use on turn) and equities.
Value betting Turn or River at what point do you Bet Fold
Fknife
Legend
Silver Level
If you're talking about those Equity Distribution graphs, then they are actually quite useful because they show eg: who should do the betting given range advantages etc. I know I didnt give any practical example (as always) but I still remember about them and plan to prepare something in the future.some of the graphs and charts just went over my head
Ok, I noted that. I was thinking mainly about a 2 streets 4bet-call game as far as that kind of stuff goes.
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rhombus
Legend
Silver Level
Flop Example 100BB Effective
Pot was 3Bet Preflop. Ignoring the 3blinds Pot is 20
You have As5s (0.4566) Villain JdQd (0.5434) I know you are suppoed to use a range and not a hand
Flop is 3s9sQc
If you check and they bet 15 into 20 and you shoved I got EV of +1.32
Is this correct and whats an easier formula
using EV = (%W * $W) – (%L * $L)
I got (0.4566*110) - (0.5434 * 90) ~ +1.32
got 110 from 20 in Pot and 90 villain had left is this right??
Also wondering if you can use SPR in the equation based on your estimated Equity, or something like when player bets $15
Pot has $35 and you have $90 so you have 2.6 * Pot and use your equity that way ???????????
Pot was 3Bet Preflop. Ignoring the 3blinds Pot is 20
You have As5s (0.4566) Villain JdQd (0.5434) I know you are suppoed to use a range and not a hand
Flop is 3s9sQc
If you check and they bet 15 into 20 and you shoved I got EV of +1.32
Is this correct and whats an easier formula
using EV = (%W * $W) – (%L * $L)
I got (0.4566*110) - (0.5434 * 90) ~ +1.32
got 110 from 20 in Pot and 90 villain had left is this right??
Also wondering if you can use SPR in the equation based on your estimated Equity, or something like when player bets $15
Pot has $35 and you have $90 so you have 2.6 * Pot and use your equity that way ???????????
Fknife
Legend
Silver Level
Well, if you always check - V always bets - you always shove and V always calls then it's the same as if you were always just open shoving in which case you care only about your pot equity. So you start (OTF) with $90 and when all the money goes in, the pot will be $200. You own 45.6% of it therefore on average you will end up with $91,32 so your flop line is +EV ($91.32 - $90 = $1.32) which...of course does not mean your entire line is +EV
I'll think of something tomorrow
Sorry guys, I'm still too busy at the moment. I should be back again next week - I haven't forgotten about you and this thread
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rhombus
Legend
Silver Level
Well, if you always check - V always bets - you always shove and V always calls then it's the same as if you were always just open shoving in which case you care only about your pot equity. So you start (OTF) with $90 and when all the money goes in, the pot will be $200. You own 45.6% of it therefore on average you will end up with $91,32 so your flop line is +EV ($91.32 - $90 = $1.32) which...of course does not mean your entire line is +EV
I was thinking more of worst possible scenario if he called, so could be even greater EV taking into account good chance he folds to shove
I'll think of something tomorrow
Sorry guys, I'm still too busy at the moment. I should be back again next week - I haven't forgotten about you and this thread
No probs no rush here.
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rhombus
Legend
Silver Level
If you read it properly it ws a flop example and on the flop given, QJ was favourite