MoeJurphy
Legend
Silver Level
Ho BogdanStark! I'm a heads up sng/cash player trying to turn over to mtt's. I find myself playing well and making few mistakes getting away from hands when I know I'm beat, I have plenty of min cashes but when the bubble bursts I often find myself busting a lot earlier than my stack says I should. I find myself trying to settup a good stack for the final table opening wider and stealing blinds and antes. Do you have any advice for this part of the mtt just after the min cashes.
BogdanStark
Visionary
Silver Level
We are in the same boat. I've just playing NL-2,5 cash, however I better like MTTs and play optimal due to prizes. Problem is, if you have nice hands till bubble, there is not guarantee to you any cash. Why? Because of pretty luck little stacks, who will make all-in pushes to double up, and some calling from your side could reduce your stack.
So, I play next way: on a bubble I try use only strong hand, to growing my stack after bubble. Only if I know there is my day, I had a lot of board combinations, I would play more loosely then usual.
Very interesting time, when it is prizes. Lot's of players became crazy and starts pushed all-in even with Ax or JTs+ so just be carefully in that period.
MoeJurphy
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah this is the period I find my 30bb+ stack calling down 10bb- all in shoves with A10+ K10s+ PF. What is your range of calling small stacks PF shoves after the bubble?
BogdanStark
Visionary
Silver Level
It depends on situation. When I see 2 levels I had nothing, even middle, range will be AQo+, AJs+, JJ+
If I see nice cards comes, hand range will be 77+, KJo+, JTs+
What about you, MoeJurphy?
MoeJurphy
Legend
Silver Level
@BogdanStark
I tend to be calling smaller stacks too wide and not giving them enough credit i've tightened up recently but I was calling my 30bb+ against a 20bb- with A10+ 66+ K10o/s+ playing these ranges tho I found myself constantly running into JJ+ AJ+ and that just destroys my range. Post bubble play I used to play really aggressive as a lot of the smaller stacks are jjust happy to be ITM and are more likely to gamble.
BogdanStark
Visionary
Silver Level
Yesterday I had final table in William Hilll room. During FT I saw typical mistakes from small stacks (they pushed all-in believe in double up with small pocket pairs). And off course they lost, because of who called their bets, always got something bigger on the board.
However I did the same mistake =(
4 players left. I'am the smaller on the small blind and got pocket 22. I've made only 2bb raise and big blind called. Board: 5 7 3.... hm....
I decided put all chips at the bank, thinking opponent had Ax
And he called with AKo
And he got last KING =(
MoeJurphy
Legend
Silver Level
I hate these stages where your almost forced into pushing with a medium hand makes me feel sick
BogdanStark
Visionary
Silver Level
It is all about statistic. I remember last 10 final tables. 2 of them I was a winner, so I can say, those 2 times my combinations close very well)))
If I had pocket 22, my opponents with AK for sure get not Ace or King on the board, if I had pocket AQ, for sure I get Ace or Queen.
In this case, I made conclusion, that poker "GODS" might be on your side, to make you winner!))))))))
However to get into the final table, is possible to do with out any luck, only skills you need.
P
ph_il
...
Silver Level
Should you call/not call a short stacks shove:
-How has the short stack/ been playing? If they've been shoving a lot, they're likely playing a very large range. If you've seen them fold 2-3 orbits and suddenly shove, they likely have a good hand.
-Gap theory still applies when facing short stack shoves in conjunction with short stacks play style. So, if Nitty McNit decides to shove after folding 36 hands in a row and their stack dwindled down from 15 BBs to 9, they likely have a very strong hand.
-Do you close the action? If not and depending on how the short stack plays, calling and having players behind you could be a problem if you call with a mediocre hand and face a large re-raise, especially if you have only a med sized stack yourself as calling/folding could be very costly. This also depends on how the players behind you play. If they're more tight, passive, you can probably just over jam and isolate most of the time. If they're aggressive and are capable of squeeze playing, you're better either jamming to isolate as you take away that play or just folding weak hands like K10s. The only exception I would make to calling is if you have a hand like KK/AA and want to set up a trap for an aggressive playing to come over the top of your call.
-Are you getting the right odds to call preflop? The magic number you want to hit is 2:1 or better preflop. Since we know most players will shove a wide range when short stacked, we can confidently call with most hands if getting 2:1 as we're very rarely in a bad spot. Most of the time we're in 60/40-40/60 situations or 50/50 if its pair vs overs.
Of course, it depends on your opponent and how wide their shove range is. The wider, the more comfortable we should be calling ATC getting 2:1 odds. Also, consider how much of your stack is at risk. Even if I'm getting 2:1, if my stack is only 30 BBs and it's 10 BBs to call, I'm probably still folding most hands because risking a 3rd of my stack is huge. Again, gap theory still applies. And finally, it depends on if you close the action or not.
Honestly, with a 30 BB stack, you don't necessarily have to call the short stack shoves, especially if you're not getting the 2:1 preflop. 30 BBs isn't that big of a stack and a miscall can cause a significant drop in your stack. With 30 BBs, I'd rather be the one shoving into short stacks (fold equity), calling off only extremely short stacks, or only calling with very strong hands: 1010+, AJ+, KQs+
-How has the short stack/ been playing? If they've been shoving a lot, they're likely playing a very large range. If you've seen them fold 2-3 orbits and suddenly shove, they likely have a good hand.
-Gap theory still applies when facing short stack shoves in conjunction with short stacks play style. So, if Nitty McNit decides to shove after folding 36 hands in a row and their stack dwindled down from 15 BBs to 9, they likely have a very strong hand.
-Do you close the action? If not and depending on how the short stack plays, calling and having players behind you could be a problem if you call with a mediocre hand and face a large re-raise, especially if you have only a med sized stack yourself as calling/folding could be very costly. This also depends on how the players behind you play. If they're more tight, passive, you can probably just over jam and isolate most of the time. If they're aggressive and are capable of squeeze playing, you're better either jamming to isolate as you take away that play or just folding weak hands like K10s. The only exception I would make to calling is if you have a hand like KK/AA and want to set up a trap for an aggressive playing to come over the top of your call.
-Are you getting the right odds to call preflop? The magic number you want to hit is 2:1 or better preflop. Since we know most players will shove a wide range when short stacked, we can confidently call with most hands if getting 2:1 as we're very rarely in a bad spot. Most of the time we're in 60/40-40/60 situations or 50/50 if its pair vs overs.
Of course, it depends on your opponent and how wide their shove range is. The wider, the more comfortable we should be calling ATC getting 2:1 odds. Also, consider how much of your stack is at risk. Even if I'm getting 2:1, if my stack is only 30 BBs and it's 10 BBs to call, I'm probably still folding most hands because risking a 3rd of my stack is huge. Again, gap theory still applies. And finally, it depends on if you close the action or not.
Honestly, with a 30 BB stack, you don't necessarily have to call the short stack shoves, especially if you're not getting the 2:1 preflop. 30 BBs isn't that big of a stack and a miscall can cause a significant drop in your stack. With 30 BBs, I'd rather be the one shoving into short stacks (fold equity), calling off only extremely short stacks, or only calling with very strong hands: 1010+, AJ+, KQs+
tocloc238
Legend
Silver Level
Philthy,
Great info there. Thank you. I know one of my (many) leaks is defending my blinds late in a tourney. It just sucks when I know that the cutoff or button is abusing me and will be raising or pushing all-in with a wide range of hands, but I find it tough to defend with speculative hands. Then when I do tale a stance and make the call of course he has AK or a pocket pair lol.
Can you give me your opinion on how you defend your blinds late?
Great info there. Thank you. I know one of my (many) leaks is defending my blinds late in a tourney. It just sucks when I know that the cutoff or button is abusing me and will be raising or pushing all-in with a wide range of hands, but I find it tough to defend with speculative hands. Then when I do tale a stance and make the call of course he has AK or a pocket pair lol.
Can you give me your opinion on how you defend your blinds late?
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P
ph_il
...
Silver Level
You definitely need to take a stand at some point before your stack dips too low and you don't have enough fold equity to play back at them.
If CO/BTN is jamming a lot and you're short stacked, be willing to call with a much wider range. My general rule is if it's a hand I'd open shove myself, I'm calling...and I open shove a huge range when short stacked.
If CO/BTN is constantly raising your blinds, find a spot to 3bet jam them. Of course, it's great when you do have a hand but sometimes you just have to let them know they can't push you around. Sometimes, you have to jam 2-3 times in a row against their CO/BTN raises. You definitely don't want to wait too long before you lose fold equity. So, if you're near 10 BBs or below it, be prepared to jam with almost ATC.
Yes, it does suck when you decide to make a play and lose, but it's always better to have that option of being able to play back at someone when you still have fold equity. At least there is a chance they'll fold, but there is also a chance you can still win and double up. So, the risk is there, but the risk gives you a much better chance at winning the pot uncontested/doubling up than just folding and getting your stack chipped away.
Finally, do a lot of stealing of your own from the CO/BTN. UTG steal sometimes. Make squeeze plays in late position. Jam over the top of a bunch of limpers. ETC. A lot of stuff you can do to pad your stack.
P
ph_il
...
Silver Level
So, if you only have 10 BBs and it's folded to you, you don't jam QQ? What if there is a significant amount of chips in the middle because of blinds and antes?Never push from the CO with QQ if there is someone with a bigger stack than yours in your left. I Tried it three times with a sad end!!
Why? Why are you letting past results affect you making +EV decisions?
tocloc238
Legend
Silver Level
Thanks philthy!
D
Dan Lucas
Rock Star
Silver Level
I couldn't agree more with the points you make here phil. Especially the part about being willing to lose. Sometimes, it is better to make the move when your opponents have some fold equity. Many is the time I wished I had gone early instead of waiting for a reasonable hand, and still get blinded out. As they say, better to go out swinging than rolling over and playing dead.
BogdanStark
Visionary
Silver Level
Nice example of right reading of situation at the table. Ability to adjust one or another situations is the best exhibition of your poker skills.
korneel
Legend
Silver Level
That's so true
Al those rules are true, but if you don't win a few coin flips you just can't win a MT, unless ofc you have always AA-ish cards.
MoeJurphy
Legend
Silver Level
When running deep post bubble and the payouts are pretty small until say final 20 of how ever many thousand would you suggest maybe taking more flips and calling shoves with flush draws on the flop etc. Is it worth taking the flip that might bust us to try and get us in a situation where we will be payed more?
BogdanStark
Visionary
Silver Level
I think we need more patience in such situations. Just waiting your time, and be cool.
I use this way: when small prizes already begun, I closes lobby, and just no looking how more players left and what prizes are ... just playing poker.
Then, when nice prizes started, I prefer still no looking on players numbers, but keep more attention on my table.