***September SNG Thread***

[WiZZiM]

I can relate to the rollercoaster. This is my graph for all my $11 games. I'm just happy it's not going staight down. But man this is fustrating. I know I got leaks but really have no idea in what area really.

Lets have a look at your distribution, could be a give away of what area of the tournament your leaking in.

 

[cardplayer52]

That finishes on the right are from all my $11s(before I had a good idea of ICM). The finishes on the left are more recent but I have made some changes in my play during this sample.

 

[dg1267]

Just throwing something that came to mind out here CP.

I would check your "calls 3bets" with 4-6 players left, and see if you're making loose calls vs. shoves near the bubble. I know this is where you'll open your game up more and are more apt to get shoved on. Maybe you need to tighten up your calling range there.

 

[WiZZiM]

That finishes on the right are from all my $11s(before I had a good idea of ICM). The finishes on the left are more recent but I have made some changes in my play during this sample.

Yeah you seem to be bubbling way way way too much.

This could be an issue from earlier on in the game, the mid game not taking enough risks, or taking risks in the wrong situations. Or it could be (my best guess) is that your probably not taking enough risks on the bubble when you need to. Which is getting you ITM with a shorter stack than you would like. You distribution is pretty standard up until 4th place, we should be expecting that to be quite low in comparasin to 5th and ITM %'s. Your 5th places are a good number, we want to be taking a lot of risks to try and accumulate a stack for the bubble, so it's weird your bubbling so often.

Have a look at mine, my biggest leak right now is my ITM game. It's getting on track now, When i got ITM i was shoving a ridiculously wide range, which ended up with me having a heap of 3rd place finishes. I've recently (last 100 games) fixed that leak to a point. Now i'm converting a lot more 3rds into seconds( my third % was as high as 20% at one stage), which will result in more 1st places too, when i start to win 60/40's . But that's just an example of how your distribution can be a real give away of where your major leaks are likely to be.


Ideally, mine will eventually get to where i want it to be with 3rds at the lowest, then seconds then firsts, so it should be on a slope upwards, instead of downwards. I'm got away with that at the micros, because the play is horrible, and i could get ITM easily. but as i move up, i will get raped if i dont pin down some decent shoving ranges in my ITM play.

 

[cardplayer52]

thank you dj i'll definately have good look at that. that is on area i'm thinking could be a possible leak. wizzim i find i get to the bubble often with a short stack. i have found some spots i am definately missing earlier in the game I hope this has a big effect on my ROI. as far as your finish distribution ITM i've hear your 3rd and 1sts should have the most and 2nds the least. this has to do with cashing being your 1st goal then playing to win the 2nd. i shove wide ITM but on the guy closest to me in chips. when ITM i basically try to get allin with the shorter of the 2 opposing stacks that way if i win i have a better shot at 1st.

 

[WiZZiM]

thank you dj i'll definately have good look at that. that is on area i'm thinking could be a possible leak. wizzim i find i get to the bubble often with a short stack. i have found some spots i am definately missing earlier in the game I hope this has a big effect on my ROI. as far as your finish distribution ITM i've hear your 3rd and 1sts should have the most and 2nds the least. this has to do with cashing being your 1st goal then playing to win the 2nd. i shove wide ITM but on the guy closest to me in chips. when ITM i basically try to get allin with the shorter of the 2 opposing stacks that way if i win i have a better shot at 1st.

Yeah as far as ITM is concerned as long as 1st is the highest, the other two don't matter as much. The common one is the 1<3<2 distribution. But a 1<2<3 distribution is just as good, but i know what your saying, the former distribution is the standard one taught, but i think that will change in the next few years, as i believe a lot of players are calling too wide now, to make it profitable to go crazy in 3rd position, so i think the latter distribution will be better in the years to come, basically means taking controlled risks, instead of owning people with wide shoving ranges, it just doesnt work anymore. So you may just be taking too many risks, it's a leak i definately had. But your rationale as for what stack types to attack is spot on, but still, we still just can't just go nuts once ITM, because players calling ranges tend to widen a lot. those spots rely on how the stack sizes match up, and if we have villain covered or not, if we do have him covered we're shoving wider, if not, then we have to revert back and play a little tighter. And it also has to do with how much equity we pick up when we shove, and how much we stand to win/lose and weighing all these factors agaisnt each other to find how much risk we can take with what hands.

But yeah, if you are getting to the bubble short, then it's most definately a mid game issue, probably not calling down wide enough, or re-stealing wide enough. Your general shoving range i assume would be about right. I'd suggest filtering down to when you could have 3bet, or when you could have cold called, then seing spots you've missed.

 

[cjatud2012]

n00bish question, but what would you guys consider mid-game? Effective stacks of like 10-20bb's? More? Less?

 

[Rldetheflop]

Im on a 500 game breakeven stretch at the moment, it's funny how poker works. a while ago i thought i was playing crap, and i was winning, now, i think im playing good, and im losing...

this is me too. I am currently on about a 1k break even streak. I feel like I am twice as skilled over the past 1k break even games than the 4k games prior when I had a pretty steady climb in profit.

 

[cardplayer52]

n00bish question, but what would you guys consider mid-game? Effective stacks of like 10-20bb's? More? Less?

i consisder mid game usually 5-8 players and stacks are 15-30bbs still a little too big to be totally push/fold but not deep enough to set mine.

 

[cjatud2012]

Okay that seems good. So we're look at the t25/t50 level all the way through t50/t100 on Tilt for that. So how often are we blind stealing here? My ATS is like 19.49% overall for these blind levels, 35.8/19.8/11.5 split up for SB/BTN/CO.

 

[dg1267]

I've seen middle stage still at t100/t200 and larger. It's not really a chip level as much as it is how many people left in the sng. Don't think of sng's like MTT's where you start with X number of people.

So you have

early stage- start of sng
middle stage- 5-8 ppl
bubble stage- 4 ppl
late stage 2-3 ppl

for a 9 man sng.

 

[cjatud2012]

Okay that seems good. So we're look at the t25/t50 level all the way through t50/t100 on Tilt for that. So how often are we blind stealing here? My ATS is like 19.49% overall for these blind levels, 35.8/19.8/11.5 split up for SB/BTN/CO.

Also, my raise from BB vs steal % is 6.02%, 3.90% from SB (again filtered for "mid-game"), is that low?

Lol, I'm having fun with PT3 now, looking at all sort of nuances. My ATS stat decreases steadily from t25/t50 all the way to t50/t100, which may or may not be normal. My W$SD % for these blind levels is 62.83%, which seems high... Lol, today I've apparently decided to reveal everything about how I play.

I've seen middle stage still at t100/t200 and larger. It's not really a chip level as much as it is how many people left in the sng. Don't think of sng's like MTT's where you start with X number of people.

So you have

early stage- start of sng
middle stage- 5-8 ppl
bubble stage- 4 ppl
late stage 2-3 ppl

for a 9 man sng.

Yeah, the # of people left can increase the average/effective stack size, so that could technically make the mid-stages last a little longer.

 

[Pokertron3000]

Need to start playing poker again have been playing some cash but ran 40 dollor on stars I had lying around up too 75 the last few days and actually enjoyed it too, cash isnt going to well and my dicipline sucks so may play some sngs for a while. I usally take a 3 month break from poker for the most part from Nov so may sng it untill then. 18 man 1$ games atm may try my hand at turbo when i get to 120 ish.

Another mid game sucky player here, quite often if I cannot make the bubble work for me I shall be one of the shortest stacks when the money hits and admit freely I let some people get away with too much.

 

[cjatud2012]

Full Tilt - $11+$1|80/160 NL - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (UTG): 4,455.00
BTN: 1,960.00
SB: 4,860.00
BB: 2,225.00

SB posts SB 80.00, BB posts BB 160.00

Pre Flop: (240.00) Hero has 8:club: 8:diamond:

Hero raises to 400.00, fold, fold, BB raises to 2,225.00 and is all-in, Hero ???

BB is unknown, assumed to be not very good. Is a raise/call standard here? (I'm stuck in one of those downswings where I'm questioning my game, although I know I just gotta grind it out and the results will come eventually)

 

[dg1267]

88 is good enough for a call, but I'd rather see TT. But you have less than 15bbs so I would've just shoved the 88, imo.

 

[dg1267]

I thought I would post this here as well, but I found a nice little free table manager. I started another thread about it so I will link to that thread to keep this one cleaner. The link is in post #8, but I show how it works in post #6

But it's basically a way to place all of your tables and have them readily movable with hotkeys to slots that you want them. Pretty cool.

 

[OzExorcist]

Full Tilt - $11+$1|80/160 NL - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (UTG): 4,455.00
BTN: 1,960.00
SB: 4,860.00
BB: 2,225.00

SB posts SB 80.00, BB posts BB 160.00

Pre Flop: (240.00) Hero has 8♣ 8♦

Hero raises to 400.00, fold, fold, BB raises to 2,225.00 and is all-in, Hero ???

BB is unknown, assumed to be not very good. Is a raise/call standard here? (I'm stuck in one of those downswings where I'm questioning my game, although I know I just gotta grind it out and the results will come eventually)

I probably call - villain will figure you for a steal a lot of the time so we're crushing or flipping a lot more often than we're crushed ourselves. Plus we're still over 10BB even if we call and lose but we're in a dominating position if we win.

 

[dg1267]

Just realized that I was putting you on the BTN. I have to admit I'm old and blind. Still a call though.

 

[cardplayer52]

Full Tilt - $11+$1|80/160 NL - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (UTG): 4,455.00
BTN: 1,960.00
SB: 4,860.00
BB: 2,225.00

SB posts SB 80.00, BB posts BB 160.00

Pre Flop: (240.00) Hero has 8♣ 8♦

Hero raises to 400.00, fold, fold, BB raises to 2,225.00 and is all-in, Hero ???

BB is unknown, assumed to be not very good. Is a raise/call standard here? (I'm stuck in one of those downswings where I'm questioning my game, although I know I just gotta grind it out and the results will come eventually)

i really got to look at his stats. if he has reg type stats i'm making the call, but if he really is unknown and iffy stats i'm folding here most of the time. 77 would be an easy fold vs unknown but 88 can go either way.

 

[cjatud2012]

it was only like 31 hands, he was like 26/10 or something similar.

ps fire drills at 2:30am are obnoxious

pps I was awake anyway so it was slightly less obnoxious than it was for my roommate

 

[dg1267]

I would really think it would be the opposite against a reg, CP. What's your thinking behind that?

 

[WiZZiM]

8's are probably a fold for me against most 3betting ranges we're not doing so great, The only thing we have going for us is that if we call and lose, we still have significant equity in the tournament, but is that enough to make this a call? i'm not sure.

 

[cardplayer52]

I would really think it would be the opposite against a reg, CP. What's your thinking behind that?

I guess i really wasnt thinking at all. this is clearly a fold and a reg would be tighter in this spot knowing he has little fold equity. but my thought was a reg knows to shove lighter than a rec, recs will shove but they usually have a range that is a lot tighter than it should be. this spot its a resteal with not alot of fold equity i'm guessing 88 would be at the bottom of the villians shoving range as far as PPs go but even vs high cards were only a flip(can't really put any ace rags in his range here). this spot we're risking too much equity is we lose than if we win. as equity is capped at 50%.

 

[dg1267]

I guess i really wasnt thinking at all. this is clearly a fold and a reg would be tighter in this spot knowing he has little fold equity. but my thought was a reg knows to shove lighter than a rec, recs will shove but they usually have a range that is a lot tighter than it should be. this spot its a resteal with not alot of fold equity i'm guessing 88 would be at the bottom of the villians shoving range as far as PPs go but even vs high cards were only a flip(can't really put any ace rags in his range here). this spot we're risking too much equity is we lose than if we win. as equity is capped at 50%.

Okay, makes sense. I'm still calling with TT though.

 

[cjatud2012]

My next question then would be if I am folding this to a shove is it still worth open-raising? Or should I be just mucking pre?