Pocket K's v. Pocket A's=Instant out?

[RamdeeBen]

Lol no one 3bets only KK+ anymore.

Indeed! You often find when someone shoves on you that your kings are really good as they are trying to push you of your 10's/jacks and you find them to turn over a small pair lol.

 

[RamdeeBen]

OP: As for the actual Aces vs Kings, I'm always willing, even if it's early in a game when blinds are low to get it all in with Kings as most of time you're ahead as we all know we are only behin to Aces. People are sooo loose they are willing to shove/call a shove with mid pairs + and A,10+ so it's mega +EV to call everytime preflop I'd imagine. Even against a nitty player, I can't find myself folding Kings, nits will "usually" shove Queens+ and if you have been quite active then they will shove Jacks+

 

[ben_rhyno]

Lol some of the advice regarding fold KK pre ITT is so bad. No-one reasonable 3-bets AA/KK only. Also, AA is involved in many of the final hands as it is the strongest hand pre, and getting your opponent to stack off when you have it is exactly what you want. People folding KK preflop except for satellite situations or vs people they have 10k hands with that only 4-bet shove AA must really hate their money.

 

[spunka]

Taking a beat with KK vs AA isn't that what we call variance, and if we can't take that, I think we're playing too high for our bankroll

 

[orangepeeleo]

Not in the early stages of a tourney. Ring? Fine. After the money bubble? Fine.
Early stages of a tourney? Reckless.

Again, just my humble opinion.

Can't believe somebody with 12k posts is actually suggesting this, just my opinion

 

[WVHillbilly]

[ ] posts = skill

 

[orangepeeleo]

[ ] posts = skill

But you have 12k posts and your like a poker jedi or something

 

[dj11]

This boils down to

Life or death vs Value.

If you play your AA's life or death, you tend to die often. If however you play your AA's for value, you usually do all right.

And yes after 5 years and 12K posts, I come down on this side of that fence.

 

[ben_rhyno]

This boils down to

Life or death vs Value.

If you play your AA's life or death, you tend to die around 20% of the time. If however you play your AA's for value, you usually do all right.

And yes after 5 years and 12K posts, I come down on this side of that fence.

FYP

 

[JaredHubbard]

With 2 limpers definitely make it 5x or more. You want the pot HU & in a micro you're going to get a lot of calls.
You have to get it in with KK there though, especially in a micro where you'll see all sorts of stuff you dominate stacking off. It's just a cooler. Move on to the next tournament knowing there's nothing you could do.

 

[RamdeeBen]

[ ] posts = skill

HaHa

Can't believe somebody with 12k posts is actually suggesting this, just my opinion

haha, I think even me with 20k+ posts would be suggesting giving an opinion something far worse than his, I'm a special case though of poker ignorance.

 

[dj11]

If you all are baiting me, I am considering whether or not to engage.............

There are implications here that perhaps I have no clue. s'ok, I prefer you have that opinion. It is +EV for me, and -EV for you. IMHO.

I also consider that some of the opinions here are presented by folks who are nicely accomplished in ring, rather than tourney's. Unfortunately, I believe you believe you play the same game regardless.

 

[orangepeeleo]

If you all are baiting me, I am considering whether or not to engage.............

There are implications here that perhaps I have no clue. s'ok, I prefer you have that opinion. It is +EV for me, and -EV for you. IMHO.

I also consider that some of the opinions here are presented by folks who are nicely accomplished in ring, rather than tourney's. Unfortunately, I believe you believe you play the same game regardless.

I wasn't baiting, just giving my opinion.

I don't play many tournaments at all nowadays, but when I did, and I had a fair few big live cashes in my day, i played to win and for me that meant trying to accumulate chips, and in the early stages take any 60% flip that I was lucky enough to get, there was always another tourny next friday if I busted out. Even the mention of a tournament life suggests to me someone that tries to preserve that life and stay in as long as they can.......as it happens, i've been thinking about trying to get back into some online mtts for a little while now and have been watching andy ward's (possibly????) videos on DTB, in his very first ep one of the first things he talks about is getting chips early on and not playing to survive.

Doing anything other than trying to get AI with KK in the early stages is severe MUB syndrome imo and would make me think someone is more concerned with outlasting the field and cashing rather than actually taking the thing down, if you have played a lot of hands with someone and can say without a doubt that they'll only 3bet AA then a case could be made, but these days people are 3betting FAR wider than KK+.

 

[Pascal-lf]

I also consider that some of the opinions here are presented by folks who are nicely accomplished in ring, rather than tourney's. Unfortunately, I believe you believe you play the same game regardless.

I play lots of tournaments and folding kings pre is bad

 

[dj11]

5 years, no new arguments.

It is the survivors who make the final tables, not the gamblers.

Survival does not imply wimpishness. It means being able to make critical decisions that go way beyond what cards you hold. And it means occasionally making a big laydown.

 

[Pascal-lf]

But not kings pre flop, because no one has a range of KK+ and you've got 47% equity against KK+, AK and 50% against QQ+

Unless it's a satellite but that's an irrelevant point

 

[baudib1]

For one thing, "gamblers" win tournaments more than "survivors." If you think you can just nit up and wait for the nuts in tournaments you're crazy (this was probably a decentish strategy a few years ago, but not now).

For another, we're not talking about gambling, we have KK!

 

[WVHillbilly]

Folding KK preflop early in a tourney is just bad. I don't care how long you've been playing or posting, if you think otherwise you're wrong. There are no new arguments in 5 years because there are no logical arguments on the side of folding. Also, not baiting, just saying.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Folding KK preflop early in a tourney is just bad. I don't care how long you've been playing or posting, if you think otherwise you're wrong. There are no new arguments in 5 years because there are no logical arguments on the side of folding. Also, not baiting, just saying.

Pretty much this. Question though, You state "early" in a tournament but I assume you mean any stage of a tournament? Also in regards to cash game, it's never a laydown preflop, ever surely no matter how nitty a player is, what you think?

Another point as to not folding kings ever if 3bet4bet shoved , I think I watched a high stakes poker game with Sammy Farah vs Barry Greenstein..

There was a lot of re-raising preflop between the two of them, not sure of exactly what but in the end Barry holding Aces shoved all-in with Farha's Kings. Sammy pondered and almost 100% sure he was beat but still said "Even against Aces, I'm holding Kings I can't fold"

I think the point of Aces vs Kings is that the odds of running Aces into Kings is quite high thus the "chance" of it happening is so low that EVER folding with Kings even if you're quite sure the other is holding Aces is a no go area as you're always going to be profiting from Kings all-in preflop long term, cash and tournament play I'd imagine is the same.

 

[dj11]

Folding KK preflop early in a tourney is just bad. I don't care how long you've been playing or posting, if you think otherwise you're wrong. There are no new arguments in 5 years because there are no logical arguments on the side of folding. Also, not baiting, just saying.

I looked, and can not find, any place ITT where I said to fold KK preflop!


It is not my position.epsi:

I think I'm done with this thread.