duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
I don't understand the line you are taking here, especially early in the blind levels we want to be extracting as much value here as possible, AKs, JTs shouldnt be hands that scare you players that call with them are in the long run giving you chips. a 5xbb as stated earlier makes sense (3 is standard + 2xlimpers).
getting stacks in with kk is ideal if your opponents allow it, shoving fearing a call makes no sense, if you shove because you think that weaker hands will call you then well played, otherwise bet/raise for value.
being afraid of AK on a A high board shouldn't worry you, as it is simple to get away from postflop(assuming you flatted).
Running into aces in inevitable, but if the table is playing looser than you then you will run into QQ,JJ,1010,99,AKs,AKo,AQs etc alot more than you will AA and that is what makes KK so profitable.
hope that helps
atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
O
only_bridge
Legend
Silver Level
At a certain level vs certain opponents, constantly and instantly.
O
only_bridge
Legend
Silver Level
You come in with a raise, someone re-raises u. You put that player on KK+; u fold.Expand^^?
cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
lol how do you put a player on KK+? What are their stats?
You have probably made some very bad folds.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
Lol no one 3bets only KK+ anymore.
mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
Yup. *ESPECIALLY* in a freeroll or low buyin large field MTT. :marchmell:
/level
To the OP, if you're still here and reading this, I just want to clear one thing up that I think you are misunderstanding: you aren't raising to 5xBB+ because you have KK, you are raising to 5xBB+ because you have two open limpers ahead of you. If you raise on 3xBB with two limpers ahead, you give them good odds to call and outdraw you.
mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
ah, bridge, disregard last marshmallow comment. I didn't see your comment was in regards to PO's commentary.
I do agree there may be some *very* specific situations where it could be right to fold KK pre. But it is certainly not a common occurrence, and probably never a fold in a micro MTT.
I do agree there may be some *very* specific situations where it could be right to fold KK pre. But it is certainly not a common occurrence, and probably never a fold in a micro MTT.
MediaBLITZ
Legend
Silver Level
YES- listen to the Monkey. That was the reason for the 5x raise as opposed to an open raise. If it's an open raise then you will get different answers from 2 1/2 to 4x the blind. A few might even go 5 in fear of Ax, but that's just being too chicken. You want action. Just have to be prepared with the knowledge that any preflop hand (AA included) can turn to crap after the flop comes. The great thing about KK is you will usually know it.
O
only_bridge
Legend
Silver Level
Oh yes they do, I do, but not in the 3$ MTT's you usually play.
Cause MTT's r way different to STT's, and the 3$ donkaments is not where you find the really nitty regs.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
hehe i play $3 mtts? did not realise my bad!
I played a ton of hands at 10nl and 25nl on iPoker last year and even the nittiest regs 3bet AK and QQ. If you're gonna try and say that regs at higher than 25nl equiv. SNGs only 3bet KK+ then I'm gonna start grinding them cos they must be ridic soft! then again if you play and fold aces pre why I am not grinding them?
O
only_bridge
Legend
Silver Level
hehe i play $3 mtts? did not realise my bad!
I played a ton of hands at 10nl and 25nl on iPoker last year and even the nittiest regs 3bet AK and QQ. If you're gonna try and say that regs at higher than 25nl equiv. SNGs only 3bet KK+ then I'm gonna start grinding them cos they must be ridic soft! then again if you play and fold aces pre why I am not grinding them?
Who said anything about ring games? For ring games I think the 10nl are probably the nittiest ones.
gefishy
Enthusiast
Silver Level
OK, I should point out: ALL of this information is incredibly useful. I appreciate all of you and your input to this point.
If I was concerned about sounding like a moron when I posted this, I probably wouldn't have. The fact of the matter is KK is a solid pre-flop hand and one that I don't shy away from. I was essentially looking for the magical way to read an AA but this thread has since become a very valuable lesson in over-all strategy.
@baudib1 Thanks for the follow-up. Despite my original confusion/anger at what appeared to be flaming my original post, you provided some good tips. Considering I had called you out, I figured you deserved to know that I have since read your other contributions and appreciate it.
Ultimately, it appears a 5x raise would achieve my optimal results. I originally was looking to push away drawing hands because I would prefer sticking to the limited outs that other pocket pairs provide, and perhaps that was being unrealistic/too restrictive. Thanks again, you guys are awesome.
gefishy
If I was concerned about sounding like a moron when I posted this, I probably wouldn't have. The fact of the matter is KK is a solid pre-flop hand and one that I don't shy away from. I was essentially looking for the magical way to read an AA but this thread has since become a very valuable lesson in over-all strategy.
@baudib1 Thanks for the follow-up. Despite my original confusion/anger at what appeared to be flaming my original post, you provided some good tips. Considering I had called you out, I figured you deserved to know that I have since read your other contributions and appreciate it.
Ultimately, it appears a 5x raise would achieve my optimal results. I originally was looking to push away drawing hands because I would prefer sticking to the limited outs that other pocket pairs provide, and perhaps that was being unrealistic/too restrictive. Thanks again, you guys are awesome.
gefishy
MediaBLITZ
Legend
Silver Level
I think it was Negreanu who told the story of the one and only time he ever folded KK. Basically went KK raise, XX reraise, KK reraise, XX reraise, KK fold. XX flips handover to show QQ.
Even if you do get an ideal betting situation to tip you off to AA, you can just never really tell.
I was in the late stages of a tourney last weekend with QQ and two other guys got into a raise/reraise cycle with me being squeezed. I folded after calling the 3bet while they kept going at each other up to all in (surely someone had to have at least KK). They went to showdown with AK and TT (and a Q on the flop).
But you know what - NEVER REGRET FOLDING - that can only tilt you. Just make a note on what guys are willing to bet the farm on and move forward.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
F
fugitive67
Rock Star
Silver Level
well if it is a real donkament and it's real early, you can shove KK there ... i know it's a tough deal if you are a good player to basically put your tourney life on no A hitting the flop, but the risk may be very well worth the reward of a double/triple/quad up
otherwise, do your standard calc for raise amount as others have suggested and if the A hits, then you really have to believe anyone that represents the A with a bet
basically you want to have that dilema ... getting KK there is something that should be profitable to you more often than not
i've had AA 1st hand in tourney, shoved, got called by 89s, 33 and lost, but as frustrating as it is ... you still want those premium cards ... you still win more than you lose
oh and to your point of KK vs. AA early ... .that is real tough naturally ... your simply not folding KK preflop ... and the flop will not likely show an A ... so it's going to be hard to get away from ... very tough ... just a cooler
otherwise, do your standard calc for raise amount as others have suggested and if the A hits, then you really have to believe anyone that represents the A with a bet
basically you want to have that dilema ... getting KK there is something that should be profitable to you more often than not
i've had AA 1st hand in tourney, shoved, got called by 89s, 33 and lost, but as frustrating as it is ... you still want those premium cards ... you still win more than you lose
oh and to your point of KK vs. AA early ... .that is real tough naturally ... your simply not folding KK preflop ... and the flop will not likely show an A ... so it's going to be hard to get away from ... very tough ... just a cooler
Last edited:
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Interesting fact.
In all the wsop ME's there have been 2 final hands involving AA vs (less than AA) and in both those cases AA lost. If we dissect this a little, we come to a few conclusions. First there have not been 217 Final hands of the MSOP ME. Not gonna go look but 40ish is about right. On average we get AA every 217 hands.
So proportionally, AA is involved too often in final hands. We may never seen another AA involved in a final hand of the WSOP ME.
Moral of this interesting fact is that if you have AA in the final hand of the MSOP, fold preflop...........epsi:
In all the wsop ME's there have been 2 final hands involving AA vs (less than AA) and in both those cases AA lost. If we dissect this a little, we come to a few conclusions. First there have not been 217 Final hands of the MSOP ME. Not gonna go look but 40ish is about right. On average we get AA every 217 hands.
So proportionally, AA is involved too often in final hands. We may never seen another AA involved in a final hand of the WSOP ME.
Moral of this interesting fact is that if you have AA in the final hand of the MSOP, fold preflop...........
epsi:
mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
Interesting fact.
In all the WSOP ME's there have been 2 final hands involving AA vs (less than AA) and in both those cases AA lost. If we dissect this a little, we come to a few conclusions. First there have not been 217 Final hands of the MSOP ME. Not gonna go look but 40ish is about right. On average we get AA every 217 hands.
So proportionally, AA is involved too often in final hands. We may never seen another AA involved in a final hand of the WSOP ME.
Moral of this interesting fact is that if you have AA in the final hand of the MSOP, fold preflop...........
Yeah, but WSOP ME is obviously rigged.
