Ask Collin Moshman and Katie Dozier About Sit ‘n Goes!

[Tenek26]

Hello! Recently, I started an experiment on the game of "double or nothing" and I had a small question about ICM, please help.

I would like to discuss one very common situation that happens to me during games in this format. As an example, theoretically, suppose, that this is a 6-max game, double or nothing, with turbo speed. The initial stack in this format is 50 bb, the opponents at the table - are experienced regulars. Several levels have passed, but despite this, there are still 6 people at the table. Each has equal stacks of 15 bb.
Situation 1. This Turbo 6max, double of nothing. Hud vpip / pfr / 3bet

MP1 15bb 35/29/8
MP2 15bb 34/28/6
CO 15bb 28/17/4
BU 15bb (Hero) 30/25/10
SB 15bb 30/27/6
BB 15bb 27/28/8

Every player at the table, is a loose-aggressive opponent, who loves aggression and often tries to steal a bank with a bluff. Question: Do you think, we should already consider the all-in option, or the call of someone else’s all in, if we have ATo preflop? What strategy do you think is the most profitable overall at this stage of the blinds levels, do we still need to play post-flop? If so, what size of open raise is needed, 3bb / 2bb / limp?

Situation 2. This Hyper-Turbo 6max, double of nothing, Bubble.

MP1 10 bb 45/30/15
MP2 9 bb 30/28/7
SB 12 bb (Hero) 25/20/8
BB 7 bb 30/26/10

Question: Tell me, please, which range of all-in preflop I need to get the maximum EV, for early position? 55 +?

Also, please, a general question, what do you think about discipline " double of nothing " ? Is it worth spending your time on it, in this discipline a very large rake.

 

[Nomahoners]

Ive gleaned some useful advice from you. Thanks. Simple stuff too, play the format I enjoy most.

? As a complete micro stakes amateur, how hard will a hud ban be for your game? I dont use them and i dont like them but im worlds away from playing 40 games at once. Cheers

 

[Collin Moshman]

Ive gleaned some useful advice from you. Thanks. Simple stuff too, play the format I enjoy most.

? As a complete micro stakes amateur, how hard will a hud ban be for your game? I dont use them and i dont like them but im worlds away from playing 40 games at once. Cheers

Thanks Noma, and if you don't normally use a HUD then them getting banned is a good thing for you. Fewer regs will stay on the site and those that do won't have as much info about you.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hello! Recently, I started an experiment on the game of "double or nothing" and I had a small question about ICM, please help.

I would like to discuss one very common situation that happens to me during games in this format. As an example, theoretically, suppose, that this is a 6-max game, double or nothing, with turbo speed. The initial stack in this format is 50 bb, the opponents at the table - are experienced regulars. Several levels have passed, but despite this, there are still 6 people at the table. Each has equal stacks of 15 bb.
Situation 1. This Turbo 6max, double of nothing. Hud vpip / pfr / 3bet

MP1 15bb 35/29/8
MP2 15bb 34/28/6
CO 15bb 28/17/4
BU 15bb (Hero) 30/25/10
SB 15bb 30/27/6
BB 15bb 27/28/8

Every player at the table, is a loose-aggressive opponent, who loves aggression and often tries to steal a bank with a bluff. Question: Do you think, we should already consider the all-in option, or the call of someone else’s all in, if we have ATo preflop? What strategy do you think is the most profitable overall at this stage of the blinds levels, do we still need to play post-flop? If so, what size of open raise is needed, 3bb / 2bb / limp?

Situation 2. This Hyper-Turbo 6max, double of nothing, Bubble.

MP1 10 bb 45/30/15
MP2 9 bb 30/28/7
SB 12 bb (Hero) 25/20/8
BB 7 bb 30/26/10

Question: Tell me, please, which range of all-in preflop I need to get the maximum EV, for early position? 55 +?

Also, please, a general question, what do you think about discipline " double of nothing " ? Is it worth spending your time on it, in this discipline a very large rake.

Tenek I think it's great to have a specialty like these 6-max DoN so long as you enjoy them and the opposition is soft. And the best way to answer these questions you're asking is with this tool.

For your second hand as an example, I put in stacks of 10, 9, 12 and 7 with 1 and 0.5 blinds and payouts of 33, 33, and 33. It says to shove a little over 50% from first-in but assumes your opponents are calling with very tight ranges so you'll probably want to tighten up relative to that.

In general, if your opponents are very loose, you'll gain tremendously from having them collide in DoN's so I'd recommend playing a TAG style. Good luck in these!

 

[KristaK]

Krista, I really appreciate being taken for Chris Moorman since I also really admire his accomplishments! But I'm another poker author and player with a similar name and the same initials

If I ever get the chance, I promise I'll pass along your nice words to Chris.

OMG i so embarrassed!!!!
*blushes*
please forgive me? i blonde
*sighs*

 

[LemonAmnezia]

What is the more profitable style of sngs when the bankroll is low. HypeR Super Hyper or Regular?

 

[LarsLucidor]

What is the more profitable style of sngs when the bankroll is low. HypeR Super Hyper or Regular?

Because of the lower variance it should be regular.

 

[Collin Moshman]

What is the more profitable style of sngs when the bankroll is low. HypeR Super Hyper or Regular?

Technically your bankroll won't affect profitability, but in practice Lars is right. If your bankroll is low, you should focus on lower-variance and higher-edge formats like normal speed games.

 

[copycutpaste]

Hi, Katie and Collin.

I just stumbled on this thread and glad I found it...I'm excited to see you two sharing your knowledge and perspectives...

I have a pretty good amount of experience with SNGs...been playing them since pokerstars was legal in US...I played all levels but enjoyed the 45 man SNG most...

I now play on ACR (because that's all that's available to me that I know of)...I mostly play low level and micro 9-man...I'd love to play a larger field but ACR doesn't have larger SNGs...

I now find myself playing lower level tourneys because I play a pretty aggressive tight style of play and that doesn't always work in ACR SNGs...I do pretty good and usually make it to the money in both SNGs and Tourneys...

You know...we have probably played each other ...I don't use a HUD (they are to confusing for me)...I usually only play one SNG or Tourney at a time but will sometimes have two going...

I feel my game is pretty good but it can always use some improving...I have taken a few Udemy courses on tournament play and listened to a few audiobooks (I hate reading ) on the subject...seems like everyone pushes or talks about using a HUD...I feel I am just missing out on a valuable opportunity to improve my results...

I don't know...I miss Pokerstars 45-man SNGs...back when HUDs were just becoming a thing...I just got back in to playing poker for cash about 2 years ago..I enjoy playing poker...I'm not out to make a huge amount of money...but I do like winning ...poker has always been a nice, calming hobby for me...I have met and played with a lot of nice people and made a few friends in the process...

I look forward to reading more in this thread...I have subscribed to it now that I found it...

I guess if a I had a question it would be do you have a YouTube channel? If so, where can I find it? Also, I have been considering investing in a HUD...DriveHUD seems to be easy to use and maybe the best for me...Have you heard of it? What are you thoughts...

I live in Minnesota...do you know of any sites, other than ACR, where I can find more SNG games?

Thanks you two...I look forward to following this thread...

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hey CopyCutPaste! That's great you're playing on ACR. I've never heard of DriveHUD but if it works for you that's great. Katie and I both use PT4 but there are a lot of nice options out there. There's also a HUD called Jivaro that's a monthly subscription instead of a flat fee. I haven't used it but have heard good things.

Besides WPN, you could check out ignition (which used to be Bovada). We don't have active Youtube channels right now.

Thanks for the nice words and posting in the thread! Oh, and Katie says she also really misses the Stars 45-man SNGs

 

[Katie Dozier]

Oh, and Katie says she also really misses the Stars 45-man SNGs

Omg I so do miss those, they were such fun games and I loved drilling the ICM spots into memory!

 

[copycutpaste]

I need some advice on whether or not to purchase a HUD...

I mostly play sngs and tourneys...rarely play cash tables...

The idea of using a HUD appeals to me...but I do not play all day every day...I play maybe 3 sngs or 1 tourney a day...

Do you think using a HUD would really pay off...I've looked into DriveHUD and Pokertracker 4...

DriveHUD is cheaper but I could not get it to work once I installed the trial...

I have not tried PokerTracker 4 yet...it's got a steep price at $99...

I do pretty good without using a HUD...just not sure I am ready to take the HUD leap..

I look forward to your advice/suggestions...

Thanks

 

[Collin Moshman]

Good question Copycutpaste. If you're playing 3 SNGs or one MTT per day, then probably a HUD wouldn't be worth it unless you're playing at least mid-stakes ($15+ games). At lower stakes and fairly low volume, while a HUD is definitely nice, I believe $100 or so is too large an investment to make the purchase worth it.

One thing you could try though is either free trials, or Jivaro -- a pay-by-month HUD which isn't cheap at $10/month, but would allow you to test out how much you enjoy having the HUD for a lower initial investment.

Good luck!

 

[copycutpaste]

Thanks for the reply, Collin.

I got DriveHUD to finally work...I like it...Like I mentioned before I'm not really sure i need a HUD but it's only $40 a year...I am using the 30-day trial right now and I think I will purchase once my trial ends...I like the idea of finding my leaks...For $40 and $10 each additional year I think it's probably worth it...

Now I just need to figure out what stats to use and to customize it...I purchased a Udemy course that goes over HUD stats in pretty good depth so I will have to re-watch it...

Have you and Katie thought about putting together a Udemy course for SNGs?...I'd read your book, but I hate reading...I do love audiobooks though

I'm sure if you put together a Udemy course it would sell...I'd buy it

Thanks for your replies...

 

[LarsLucidor]

Hi again, Katie and Collin! [emoji846]
What would you consider the most important statistic when tracking sng results? Could bb/100 be useful when looking at short term results or would you just stick to roi and itm?
Also, how are you organizing a sng session? Do you start all sngs at once or are you entering them in intervals? I find it a bit difficult going for long sessions (I mean we all have to go to the bathroom at some point, right?[emoji5]).
/Lars

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks CopyCutPaste!

LarsLucidor, great questions. bb/100 is a great cash stat. For SNGs it's less common, although you definitely could use that stat to see how much you're beating a particular early blind level. The overall best stat for results is ROI.

I load SNGs continuously rather than in sets. For a bathroom break, even if you can just get down to a couple of tables, you can sit out for a minute if needed and not miss much at all if you time it right.

Hope that helps

 

[LarsLucidor]

Thanks CopyCutPaste!

LarsLucidor, great questions. bb/100 is a great cash stat. For SNGs it's less common, although you definitely could use that stat to see how much you're beating a particular early blind level. The overall best stat for results is ROI.

I load SNGs continuously rather than in sets. For a bathroom break, even if you can just get down to a couple of tables, you can sit out for a minute if needed and not miss much at all if you time it right.

Hope that helps

Thank you! It helped a lot!

 

[icbari1]

what is ICM?

hi! who knows whats ICM means?

 

[fundiver199]

hi! who knows whats ICM means?

Independant Chip Model. Its a mathematical model, which estimate the value of your chips based on other players stack sizes and the payout structure.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Independant Chip Model. Its a mathematical model, which estimate the value of your chips based on other players stack sizes and the payout structure.

Great answer, Fundiver! You beat me to the punch

 

[yunir3262]

thanks for the book, I'm impressed

 

[Katie Dozier]

thanks for the book, I'm impressed

Thanks for your kindness and interest!

 

[copycutpaste]

Like Lars above I would be interested in seeing what HUD stats you use for sngs...I am new to HUDs so any guidance would help...

Also...get started on that Udemy course

 

[Katie Dozier]

Like Lars above I would be interested in seeing what HUD stats you use for sngs...I am new to HUDs so any guidance would help...

Also...get started on that Udemy course

I favor a pretty simple HUD for SNG and MTT play: number of hands with opponent/VPIP (voluntarily put in pot %)/ PFR (preflop raise %) / 3b (three-bet percent)

Over the years, I’ve evolved to this simple one line HUD (keeping in mind of course that I can click on my HUD in order to temporarily display more stats when I find myself in a specific situation where I want a more obscure stat versus a villain that I have many hands with in order for a stat to be statistically relevant).

My basic HUD stats don’t take as long to become statistically significant versus more specific ones. Almost every single hand, a player has the opportunity on wether or not to voluntarily enter a hand, so VPIP quickly gives us a picture as to how many pots the player is entering. PFR stats also accumulate quickly, giving us a snapshot into the player’s level of aggression without the burden of accumulating thousands of hands with them.

The more obscure stats come up way less frequently and take a long time to become statistically relevant, such as a player’s 4-bet percent. In my coaching, perhaps the most common mistake I’ve seen with HUDs is an over reliance on them, especially when it comes to more obscure stats. I’d rather let the vastly more general VPIP/PFR be the far bigger decider in helping me range relatively unknown opponents. [emoji4]


I like that my simple HUD limits my immediate information to the absolute most reliable stats that give me the most accurate “big” picture in the fewest number of hands. Also, it keeps my screen relatively uncluttered looking for multi-tabling which is important for avoiding errors (as well as lessening my chance of getting a headache lol).

Hope this helps! [emoji4]

 

[copycutpaste]

I favor a pretty simple HUD for SNG and MTT play: number of hands with opponent/VPIP (voluntarily put in pot %)/ PFR (preflop raise %) / 3b (three-bet percent)

Over the years, I’ve evolved to this simple one line HUD (keeping in mind of course that I can click on my HUD in order to temporarily display more stats when I find myself in a specific situation where I want a more obscure stat versus a villain that I have many hands with in order for a stat to be statistically relevant).

My basic HUD stats don’t take as long to become statistically significant versus more specific ones. Almost every single hand, a player has the opportunity on wether or not to voluntarily enter a hand, so VPIP quickly gives us a picture as to how many pots the player is entering. PFR stats also accumulate quickly, giving us a snapshot into the player’s level of aggression without the burden of accumulating thousands of hands with them.

The more obscure stats come up way less frequently and take a long time to become statistically relevant, such as a player’s 4-bet percent. In my coaching, perhaps the most common mistake I’ve seen with HUDs is an over reliance on them, especially when it comes to more obscure stats. I’d rather let the vastly more general VPIP/PFR be the far bigger decider in helping me range relatively unknown opponents. [emoji4]


I like that my simple HUD limits my immediate information to the absolute most reliable stats that give me the most accurate “big” picture in the fewest number of hands. Also, it keeps my screen relatively uncluttered looking for multi-tabling which is important for avoiding errors (as well as lessening my chance of getting a headache lol).

Hope this helps! [emoji4]

Thanks, Katie.

That helps and makes perfect sense. I think I will adopt the minimal approach myself...