Ask Collin Moshman and Katie Dozier About Sit ‘n Goes!

[eagleaces]

Do i really have to memorize

You’re right! Formats have changed a lot in just a few years—even moreso than normal I’d say! A lot of paths players take to improving differ, but personally I really liked the way I went about it—by starting in fast-structured SNGs.

This allowed me to cement my shove/fold play while working on the deeper-stacked concepts more slowly. Back when I first started grinding, those games were 9-man super turbos, but now 3-handed jackpots are the closest modern day equivalent. Another nice option would be microstakes turbo SNGs as well. Hope this helps!




Thanks, hope you and enjoy the course and good luck! [emoji4]

I Been playing for years now and i do ok. in the sense i win but mostly in the long run its break even.( mostly cause i spend my winnings on other stuff lol) I know how to Use my card odds with pot odds and I got a good idea how to spot Types of players. I use my position and im Not just Tight aggro but i adapt and i can see players mistakes and exploit them. I know things like Ak hits the flop 30ish percent of the time and small pairs hit the set about 11 percent of the time and other things like this. I understand how range works and how implement that knowledge. I am curious what extra should i learn It seems that i know all the tricks tips and science but i feel like im missing something. Wondering if there are any Advanced Things i dont know of yet. IDk if i gave you enough info or maybe just pointless info but Id like to hear your Opinion on it i know there is always something to learn.

 

[Caissa]

When to shove Pre-flop

I'm not sure if this is the right spot to post this question but I'm studying "Becoming a Winning Poker Player in 30 Days." On day 13 (when to shove pre-flop) the example hand (hand13-1) says it's correct to shove A2o from CO with 11bb effective stack. It says this will be explained later and I can't find it.

This is not in the "magic range" nor is it a hand one would normally raise from CO. What's the rational and where can I find it?

I've benefitted greatly from this course. In general it's caused my to tighten up my short stack play due to the ICM considerations you show. I'm playing more turbos and hyper-turbos but I am concerned after seeing this that I may be tightening up to much.

Thank you both for your help. It's really imporved my game.

Kat

 

[Collin Moshman]

I'm not sure if this is the right spot to post this question but I'm studying "Becoming a Winning Poker Player in 30 Days." On day 13 (when to shove pre-flop) the example hand (hand13-1) says it's correct to shove A2o from CO with 11bb effective stack. It says this will be explained later and I can't find it.

This is not in the "magic range" nor is it a hand one would normally raise from CO. What's the rational and where can I find it?

I've benefitted greatly from this course. In general it's caused my to tighten up my short stack play due to the ICM considerations you show. I'm playing more turbos and hyper-turbos but I am concerned after seeing this that I may be tightening up to much.

Thank you both for your help. It's really imporved my game.

Kat

Very glad to hear you're enjoying the course Kat!

You're right about the A2 example. We elaborate on shoving ranges in the More ICM day, as well as the big stack dynamic in the Exploiting Risk Aversion day. But there's no exact rule we give that the A2 falls under so I appreciate you pointing that out.

New Guideline: With 12bb or lower effective stack (with an ante), shove first-in with any ace from the cutoff or later.

If you have ICMizer or Holdem Resources, they're nice for inputting hands like this and the free tool at Holdem Resources also works. If you have any further questions on using these tools, the A2 hand, or other ICM questions, feel free to post them here or in the daily threads in Learning Poker.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hey, I'm pretty new to poker overall and recently decided to start maybe playing sngs because of the time flexibility. I've studied a decent of tournament and deepstack play so I find myself pretty comfortable. However from reading this thread I see that the are some differences between MTTS and SNGs mainly that you are in the Push/Fold mode much faster and with much more ICM then in regular MTTS, I started using the ICMIZER app but was wondering what other differences should I pay attention to vs an MTT as currently I'm basically just doing the same thing as an MTT(Tight, Aggressive) and any other advice you have for a tournament player who wants to learn to crush sngs. Btw I'm at the microstakes level not trying to play games that I cant beat yet. Also what type of ROI, ITM should I expect compared to tournaments. Is there more variance or less compared to larger tourneys?

Good question. The main difference is in ICM; you can usually play early game spots the same across different formats. It's great you have ICMizer; continue using it to study, apply your tourney game to deeper-stacked spots, and you should do very well.

To answer your other questions:

ROI will decrease in SNGs because they're faster. In slow speed MTT, you can have the highest ROI (but not necessarily the highest hourly rate).

ITM will usually increase in SNGs. The higher the percent of the field paid, the higher your ITM percent.

Variance will decrease in SNGs. The larger the field and more winner-take-all the payout structure, the bigger the swings.

Hope that helps and good luck in your SNGs!

 

[Collin Moshman]

When There are Four players (for me i usually have chip lead or average and above Most of the sitngos i play, 50$ to micro 1.50$) I lose more even though i always get it in with the lead or a small dog. For instance four handed i get delt AK Clubs suited UTG and i usually make it 2.5bb pre at this stage. SB calls and the bb folds. Flop: 3d 7d Qc. SB checks and i Make a C bet(3.4bb) and its called. TURN: Kh SB leads out here (8bb) and i call.
RIVER: 3s Sb checks and i decide to check behind for simple reason of i only have a pair lol. He turns over Ace 3.
I will always lose with premiums From here on out. Usually when i win the Sit n go its cause i make a Gut Feeling shove or i just plain outplay my opponents post flop. Im just curious if i played that right and also is it a thing to not play Standard to win a Game.

Here is my advice from what you wrote in your two posts:

1. Value bet the AK in your hand example. I know Villain had better but your hand is strong and you can get worse hands to call by betting. In the long run, this will be the best play to bet it.

2. Be more optimistic. You say you'll always lose with premiums but you won't, I promise

3. Always keep learning. You have good knowledge of poker stats and ranges. Build on that with any fundamentals you're less familiar with (me and Katie's 30-day course here), and for more advanced content check out your favorite streamers who have good track records in the games and analyze their play.

4. Analyze your own hands. Think them through; use software; post them right here on the CardsChat hand analysis forums.


I hope this advice helps and best of luck in your games!

 

[Psyanide14]

Hi guys. Hope you are still responding to this thread. Just completed the mid term exam from your becoming a winning poker player in 30 days here on CardsChat. I did have one question if I may. Towards the end there was a hand in the sb that called with 32h. Two hearts came on flop and when we count our outs we get the 9 for flush and 6 for straight so the strategy is to semi bluff with our big draw hand. I understand the concept completely but my question is how much do we worry about running into a higher flush? Obviously 32 is going to be the nut low flush. Do we still count all 9 outs for the draw or do we say only count half do take into account potential for higher flush? Thanks.

BTW I finished 9/333 shortly after finishing the midterm. My highest finish in quite a while and I’m sure the course helped a lot. Thanks!

 

[Lenka65]

opinion

When your pocket aces run over five times in a row, poker math goes to hell ... and your life goes there too.

 

[Allusiv]

What’s the biggest difference between SnGs and MTTs? Do you approach them with different strategies or similiar?

 

[Katie Dozier]

Hi guys. Hope you are still responding to this thread. Just completed the mid term exam from your becoming a winning poker player in 30 days here on CardsChat. I did have one question if I may. Towards the end there was a hand in the sb that called with 32h. Two hearts came on flop and when we count our outs we get the 9 for flush and 6 for straight so the strategy is to semi bluff with our big draw hand. I understand the concept completely but my question is how much do we worry about running into a higher flush? Obviously 32 is going to be the nut low flush. Do we still count all 9 outs for the draw or do we say only count half do take into account potential for higher flush? Thanks.

BTW I finished 9/333 shortly after finishing the midterm. My highest finish in quite a while and I’m sure the course helped a lot. Thanks!

Hi Psyanide,

Congrats on the final table in the massive field and glad to hear you’re enjoying the course! We are still replying just traveling a ton lately with two kids so may take us a bit longer to reply than before

You’re definitely right that drawing to the lowest possible flush increases the chances that we end up losing to a higher flush should we get it in. For me, cutting down our flush outs to half is a bit too strong for this scenario—but I do think you make a strong case for dwindling your outs down to ~7.

Hope this helps and that you enjoy the rest of the course, with another big final table soon!

 

[Katie Dozier]

What’s the biggest difference between SnGs and MTTs? Do you approach them with different strategies or similiar?

The biggest difference is that ICM comes in to play waaaay earlier in SNGs. In general, that’s why we often get to play looser in MTTs. I def approach them with the same basic aggressive strategy, just constantly aware (or at least trying to be [emoji4]) of any ICM adjustments than can radically effect the best plays [emoji106]

 

[Psyanide14]

Thanks for the previous reply. Getting towards the end of the second half and gearing up for the final exam. Lol.

Did have another question though. In one section you recommend mainly limping from the small blind with a wide range of hands because of pot odds and that you are out of position. However, I’m doing the defending the big blind course today and it says to attack players who limp from the small blind because you have position. Isn’t that contradicting itself? If we limp in the small blind, aren’t we going to face big blind raises a lot of the time? And that is what I’ve come across and even have players chat at the table “Don’t limp to me maahahhaa” or something to that effect. Hope you can help clear that up for me. Or is it more that we limp against players who haven’t done this course! Lol.

Had another super finish in a microstake tournament. 9/1700. How do I get lucky at the final table? Both times I busted with AA all in preflop vs Axo. I’m supposed to be over 90% to win! Lol

Maybe after the final exam I get blessed by the poker gods????

Thanks again for the reply. Very generous of your time, I’m sure you guys are busy with life.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks for the previous reply. Getting towards the end of the second half and gearing up for the final exam. Lol.

Did have another question though. In one section you recommend mainly limping from the small blind with a wide range of hands because of pot odds and that you are out of position. However, I’m doing the defending the big blind course today and it says to attack players who limp from the small blind because you have position. Isn’t that contradicting itself? If we limp in the small blind, aren’t we going to face big blind raises a lot of the time? And that is what I’ve come across and even have players chat at the table “Don’t limp to me maahahhaa” or something to that effect. Hope you can help clear that up for me. Or is it more that we limp against players who haven’t done this course! Lol.

Had another super finish in a microstake tournament. 9/1700. How do I get lucky at the final table? Both times I busted with AA all in preflop vs Axo. I’m supposed to be over 90% to win! Lol

Maybe after the final exam I get blessed by the poker gods????

Thanks again for the reply. Very generous of your time, I’m sure you guys are busy with life.

Good question!

The answer is that the advice isn't contradictory and both of the following are true simultaneously: (a) The small blind's best strategy is to open-limp a lot into the big blind, and (b) the big blind is correct to attack fairly often both pre-flop and post-flop.

From the small blind's perspective: Yes, you'll face a decent number of raises, but that's OK. The reason is that some of the time the big blind will either check, or his raise will work out fine because you'll stick around and win a larger pot. Against an out-of-line opponent, you can start limp-3betting more as well.

Nice work on your final table finish! That's crazy you lost both times with AA to AXo, that is truly running about as bad as you can ... but I agree that once you pass the final exam the run-good will for sure be activated

 

[Psyanide14]

Thanks again Colin and Katie for answering my questions and for taking the time to put together this course. It was extremely educational and fun. The videos showing the hands really put it all together.

I got an A on my final exam! (14/15 + bonus). Even with that A, I’m going to reread all the sections and watch some of the videos again. I think rereading it with the gained knowledge will help cement the fundamentals and I encourage all the members here to do this course if they haven’t already.

As a bonus, I finally broke free of the first out of FT curse, finishing 7/369. My third finally table in about 10 tournaments (all 300+ entries) since the midterm exam. I no doubt owe most of this success to you (the rest to the poker god of luck for having my hands hold). Hoping I can take one of these down now that I did the final exam!

Thanks so much and best of luck to you both. Maybe some day I’ll see you at a FT!

 

[whaler54]

SNG's

Why can't I win at these? My luck sux...

 

[fundiver199]

It takes a pretty large game sample to be sure, but informally if you feel like you understand the game pretty well and have at least a 5% ROI over 500 games at $3.50, it would be reasonable to try out the $7s.

At pokerstars specifically there is a pretty substantial drop in the rake, when you move from 3,5$ to 7$ 6-18-man SnGs and for the 50/fifty as well. In my experience you also see many of the same regulars across limits, presumably because they just fire up a bunch of tables and grind away. So I dont actually think, its any more difficult to beat the 7$ SnGs on PokerStars than the similar 3,5$ versions. You can pretty much compare it to 5NL vs 10NL cash games, which also tend to play in a rather similar way. And then it mainly becomes a question of, how much bankroll, you have, and how willing you are to risk losses.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Why can't I win at these? My luck sux...

I know it's frustrating when you're running badly, but don't worry -- Over the long run, skill will win out

hi hi colin !!! :ciao:
thank you answer me
please i not know how pot odds be useful metric for mtt/sng

is about long term probabilities, yes?
i play very few events each week
hard understand how pot odds are relevant in tournies, aren't they perhaps more applicable to cash games, when play a multitude of hands, then over a zillion hands they become an important metric for decisions?

thank you your advice is so valuable & appreciated

Pot odds are just as relevant in tourny/SNG as they are in cash games. If you only play a few games a week, then it will take longer for luck to smooth out but you'll still be maximizing your expected value by incorporating pot odds into your decisions compared to not. Hope that helps, good luck!

At PokerStars specifically there is a pretty substantial drop in the rake, when you move from 3,5$ to 7$ 6-18-man SnGs and for the 50/fifty as well. In my experience you also see many of the same regulars across limits, presumably because they just fire up a bunch of tables and grind away. So I dont actually think, its any more difficult to beat the 7$ SnGs on PokerStars than the similar 3,5$ versions. You can pretty much compare it to 5NL vs 10NL cash games, which also tend to play in a rather similar way. And then it mainly becomes a question of, how much bankroll, you have, and how willing you are to risk losses.

Thanks Fundiver, that's very useful input on this topic.

 

[cardplayer52]

Hey Collin. I bought and read your book back in 2009. I know it helped me a lot, thank you. I actually slimmed through it today some. Then I found this thread today. Im going to check out your coarse Im sure its good. My question would be are SnGs still as easy as before? In the US some states are legal I would think this would attract tons of fish.

 

[thethe]

how do you beat yourself up? not to make more mistakes in sng poker in money management?

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hey Collin. I bought and read your book back in 2009. I know it helped me a lot, thank you. I actually slimmed through it today some. Then I found this thread today. Im going to check out your coarse Im sure its good. My question would be are SnGs still as easy as before? In the US some states are legal I would think this would attract tons of fish.

Thanks Cardplayer! To answer your question, SNGs are definitely tougher games overall now than they were in 2009, but there are still plenty of soft low-stakes games running. Definitely compare across sites in the US like you're saying and you can find some very good SNGs running.

how do you beat yourself up? not to make more mistakes in sng poker in money management?

Don't beat yourself up Just work on improving your mindset and studying. The goal is to improve including on the mental side of the game and not to make yourself feel better for making mistakes.

 

[J_Hugs]

Using External Aids

I've been playing on-line for only a few months now, mostly low stakes SNG's. I subscribed to your and Katie's "B e c o m e a W i n n i n g P o k e r P l a y e r i n 3 0 D a y s" and appreciate the help it has provided in making me a better player.
I read an interesting thread on Twitter today that made me wonder something. It was from Olivier Busquet (who I admire) and it was a bit of a rant about using solvers/external aids during on-line tourney's.
I generally have your Day 6 chart of pre-flop recommendations open on my second display and reference it periodically. I really never thought much about it until I read the tweet. I also use the Day 10 chart of all-in odds to help me remember the odds of filling my draws.
Can you expound on the ethics of these type guides, in your opinion.

 

[flail1]

Welcome Collin and Katie - just awesome you are chatting with us.

My question is for a 9 person sit n go with 3 places paid. When down to 4, I always play to make the money first before going for the win. Do you find it more profitable to go for the win all the time (even if you bubble more at 4th) or is making the money first the better $ play?? Thank you.

 

[Collin Moshman]

I've been playing on-line for only a few months now, mostly low stakes SNG's. I subscribed to your and Katie's "B e c o m e a W i n n i n g P o k e r P l a y e r i n 3 0 D a y s" and appreciate the help it has provided in making me a better player.
I read an interesting thread on Twitter today that made me wonder something. It was from Olivier Busquet (who I admire) and it was a bit of a rant about using solvers/external aids during on-line tourney's.
I generally have your Day 6 chart of pre-flop recommendations open on my second display and reference it periodically. I really never thought much about it until I read the tweet. I also use the Day 10 chart of all-in odds to help me remember the odds of filling my draws.
Can you expound on the ethics of these type guides, in your opinion.

Glad you're enjoying the course!

Busquet's stance is a good one for top pros playing against each other in a major bet like this. For any normal grinder, all you need to do is follow site terms of service. If a site allows something and it helps you, then great -- use it. In the case of charts for odds and opening ranges, most sites allow them and you should definitely take advantage of that.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Welcome Collin and Katie - just awesome you are chatting with us.

My question is for a 9 person sit n go with 3 places paid. When down to 4, I always play to make the money first before going for the win. Do you find it more profitable to go for the win all the time (even if you bubble more at 4th) or is making the money first the better $ play?? Thank you.

Thanks Flail!

This is a great question. The answer is that you shouldn't play to cash first. Instead, think about maximizing your EV each hand. This means being willing to go out in 4th by making a play if you're being compensated well enough for the risk. As an example, if you're second in chips and the chip leader shoves with 4 left then you should call very tight, possibly folding hands as strong as AK. Other times you might call it off pretty wide on the bubble because you're very short.

I hope that info helps

 

[flail1]

Thank you Collin - your time and expertise is so very much appreciated. I'll try my best to practice this going forward!

 

[J_Hugs]

Glad you're enjoying the course!

Busquet's stance is a good one for top pros playing against each other in a major bet like this. For any normal grinder, all you need to do is follow site terms of service. If a site allows something and it helps you, then great -- use it. In the case of charts for odds and opening ranges, most sites allow them and you should definitely take advantage of that.

Thanks for the response. The course has definitely helped my game.