$2 NLHE STT Turbo: Few hands into the SnG- AKo facing reraise

[jaded848]

$2 NL HE STT Turbo: Few hands into the SnG- AKo facing reraise

So early in a sng i make a standard raise from early position with AKo and get min-reraised. I pretty much get it in here 9 times out of 10, simply because I feel like I have alot of fold equity, I'm definitely not folding, and I hate flatting because it leaves me open to cbets the 2/3 times an A or K misses the flop (especially OOP). Also, I've found that at these stakes, many of the hands that WOULD call my shove are beat by me (AQ, AJ, even ATs).

Sure, every now and then I run into aces or kings, but I think I run into aq, aj, and ATs more often enough for this shove to be profitable. I understand how this is an overbet, but in the early stages of a sng I don't really want to be involved in a big hand unless I'm a sure favorite, so I'm pretty much looking for a fold here. Still, I'd like to hear others' opinions on it...

Also, what if I were in late position here facing a standard raise from early position? Could I 3bet, or should I flat?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
UTG+1 (t1550)
MP1 (t3045)
MP2 (t1455)
CO (t1455)
Button (t1490)
SB (t1505)
Hero (BB) (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
Hero's M: 25.00
Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

Hero bets t120, 5 folds, Button raises to t200, 1 fold, Hero ??

 

[c9h13no3]

Here, I'm clueless as to what to do, and it probably involves a lot of math for me to figure it out.

But here's a first attempt....

We have 10% equity if we fold.
We have 20% equity if we win.

So it looks, ICM considerations don't really come into affect here. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I suppose it becomes a shove at that point.

As a cash game player, this seems like an insta-stack all day. But min-raises can mean weird stuff, so... yeah.... bottom line is I don't know. But at least I'm bumping your thread right?

 

[Rldetheflop]

I am confused how did you raise first from the BB?

 

[WiZZiM]

This would be an easier decision, but im fine with getting it in with around 30bb's. It's a goofy raise size, so we can assume he doesn't really know what he's doing.

Even getting it in flipping here against a hand like JJ or QQ, isn't too bad in terms of ICM considerations, as We know that it's better to get it in earlier, as we are going to be spewing less equity. And since we can assume he is really bad, we probably dominate a lot of the stuff he's going to call with too. So, i feel that folding is too weak, especially at low limits, calling puts us in no mans land postflop, and we may not get paid if the ace/king hits, and we check/fold most flops to c-bets, i'm not totally sure, but id ship it and move on to the next tournament .

 

[jaded848]

Here, I'm clueless as to what to do, and it probably involves a lot of math for me to figure it out.

But here's a first attempt....

We have 10% equity if we fold.
We have 20% equity if we win.

So it looks, ICM considerations don't really come into affect here. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I suppose it becomes a shove at that point.

As a cash game player, this seems like an insta-stack all day. But min-raises can mean weird stuff, so... yeah.... bottom line is I don't know. But at least I'm bumping your thread right?

So in this spot, our equity really does double if we win? Interesting, how is that?

Glad to hear a shove doesn't sound so crazy though, when I did it I felt kinda silly considering it went from a 120 initial raise to a min reraise to a shove lol

Villain flipped 33 and they held up, oh well. I was half expecting to see aces of kings...

 

[jaded848]

I am confused how did you raise first from the BB?

I don't know how the thing messed up, I was UTG.

 

[OzExorcist]

I dunno if this is a good answer, and it might be a leak in my own game, but I'm happy enough to shove it here. Often we'll just win the pot when we make everyone fold, sometimes we'll get calls from dominated hands, sometimes we'll flip and sometimes we'll be crushed by AA or KK.

If we double through we're on track for a good result and if we get knocked out we can just start another game - in a situation like that I'm happy to get my gamble on.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I like a fold or a flat call here and check/fold if the flop doesn't contain an ace or king.

 

[c9h13no3]

So in this spot, our equity really does double if we win? Interesting, how is that?

I have no idea, but that's what the calculator says. But it makes no sense to me.

Also, to the people saying flat a 3-bet OOP with a reverse implied odds hand, SIIGGGGHHHHHH.

 

[WiZZiM]

I have no idea, but that's what the calculator says. But it makes no sense to me.

Also, to the people saying flat a 3-bet OOP with a reverse implied odds hand, SIIGGGGHHHHHH.

It's due to the fact that, early in a 9 man SNG, the equity we gain from doubling up is actually close to double, it's not quite double, but it's close. So really, even if we happen to be flipping early in spots like this, it's not going to be a huge mistake. Basically we spew less equity to the remaining players if we get it in early, but if we get it in later, we spew loads more equity, which is really bad for us. THe calculator may be rounding off?

 

[cjatud2012]

I like a fold or a flat call here and check/fold if the flop doesn't contain an ace or king.

Why? I'm pretty sure shoving would be +$EV, even if we're only 50/50 or so in terms of equity, the money already in the pot will make up for the "leakage", plus we might have a little fold equity, even if it's just a little bit. By flatting, we're setting ourselves up to get outplayed post-flop. Folding this pre when we have good equity is definitely not good.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Why? I'm pretty sure shoving would be +$EV, even if we're only 50/50 or so in terms of equity, the money already in the pot will make up for the "leakage", plus we might have a little fold equity, even if it's just a little bit. By flatting, we're setting ourselves up to get outplayed post-flop. Folding this pre when we have good equity is definitely not good.

How can we get outplayed on the flop? I'm calling this to see if an ace or a king hits on the flop.

I think shoving is wrong because our fold equity is minute - what hands would villian fold now? 77? AQo?

 

[cjatud2012]

How can we get outplayed on the flop? I'm calling this to see if an ace or a king hits on the flop.

I think shoving is wrong because our fold equity is minute - what hands would villian fold now? 77? AQo?

Calling just to try and hit the flop out of position isn't really a great plan imo. I think most players would agree. We'll get c-bet off a lot of times when villain has AQ, etc., we'll get stacked when we hit TPTK, or we'll lose all action if he has TT and the flop comes AJ2.

Even if our fold equity is low/non-existent, which I agree it probably is, there's already enough money in the pot to make this worth shoving.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Calling just to try and hit the flop out of position isn't really a great plan imo. I think most players would agree. We'll get c-bet off a lot of times when villain has AQ, etc., we'll get stacked when we hit TPTK, or we'll lose all action if he has TT and the flop comes AJ2.

Even if our fold equity is low/non-existent, which I agree it probably is, there's already enough money in the pot to make this worth shoving.

So we wont get action from ace queen when we hit our ace?

What if they have some sort of draw when we hit TPTK?

What if when he has 10's the flop comes AA9?

I can make examples for my arguement too!

LOL

I think it's too early in the tournament to make the shove. Call the 80 more and see a flop.

 

[cjatud2012]

Fair enough point on the first part, but as to your second statement, it's not "too early" to shove if the shove is +$EV. I don't have SNGWiz yet, but I'd be curious to see what it said.

 

[dg1267]

I see both sides of this point. We're getting action from almost any PP or Ax who min reraised us. I don't like shoving it, but that's my play most of the time this happens too.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Fair enough point on the first part, but as to your second statement, it's not "too early" to shove if the shove is +$EV. I don't have SNGWiz yet, but I'd be curious to see what it said.

I'm also curious because I think it's not +EV to shove.

Keep in mind this is a $2 sng.

 

[dg1267]

Keep in mind this is a $2 sng.

This is exactly why I'm more inclined to shove. When you know you have them beat, shoving is the only answer, because they will call you with anything.

 

[OzExorcist]

Keep in mind this is a $2 sng.

Out of interest, how exactly does the fact that it's a $2 game affect your decision?

 

[c9h13no3]

So we wont get action from ace queen when we hit our ace?

What if they have some sort of draw when we hit TPTK?

What if when he has 10's the flop comes AA9?

I can make examples for my arguement too!

Yes, but your examples suck.

Think about how often that stuff happens (not often). Now think about how often you flop nothing (most of the time). Now think about how much you like calling. Calling really is out of the question.

 

[dg1267]

Out of interest, how exactly does the fact that it's a $2 game affect your decision?

It's obviously not a top factor. But in the $2's they do this all the time with AT-AQ hands and low PP's just to see where they are. In higher games you would expect a serious 3 bet.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Yes, but your examples suck.

Think about how often that stuff happens (not often). Now think about how often you flop nothing (most of the time). Now think about how much you like calling. Calling really is out of the question.

Why do my examples suck?

I've noticed that in these $2 games - People don't fold after they make this type of play.

That's my whole problem with shoving. You have 0 fold equity. I seriously doubt this player will fold.

Why didn't villian shove or make a regular sized 3bet? To see where they are? LMAO. To get you to shove into their aces or kings with ace king.

 

[OzExorcist]

Why do my examples suck?

Without wanting to put words in other people's mouths, I believe the point was that the examples you cited don't come up very often compared to the ones cj mentioned.

I'm confused BTW - what range are you giving the villain when you say we don't have any fold equity here? If you're assuming villain is a drooler who can't fold something like KJ here then I'm perfectly OK with having no fold equity because we're good against that range. I shove preflop and I'm happy to get called.

If you believe we don't have any fold equity because this can only be a big pair, however, then flatting hoping to hit / stack TPTK on the flop is a terrible plan - DUCY?

If we think his range is wider than AA/KK then, for the reasons cj mentioned flatting is also a terrible plan. Yes, we might get AQ to stack off on an Axx flop but that's only going to happen a very small amount of the time. The examples cj cites, where we don't hit the flop (about 70% of the time IIRC) and have to fold to a c-bet or we do hit the flop and an underpair folds to our c-bet are going to happen a lot more of the time.

 

[c9h13no3]

Yes, we might get AQ to stack off on an Axx flop but that's only going to happen a very small amount of the time.

About 1 out of 12 to put a number to it (when they hold AQ). And that's assuming they have AQ. Their range usually contains a lot of other stuff, and most of it can't give you action on an A high flop.

Thanks for putting words into my mouth, they were quite eloquent.

When you say you want to call, it just shows how you don't think about what you're going to do on the flop. If you're calling you have to have a plan for what you're going to do when you miss, because that's going to happen about 65%-70% of the time. And when stacks are this shallow, and your opponent c-bets, the only thing you can do is fold.

So if I had to sum it up in a sentence, I'd say this:

When we call, we don't win enough back when we hit to make up for the times we miss and have to fold.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

. If you're calling you have to have a plan for what you're going to do when you miss.

check/fold.