$2 NLHE STT Turbo: Few hands into the SnG- AKo facing reraise

[jaded848]

check/fold.

That means that 2/3 of the time we're losing chips to a cbet when we could easily have villain dominated.


As some others have said, I didn't really think fold equity was the main issue here. I'm happy when he folds, but I do think I'm getting called by a weaker ace a good portion of the time, and even by hands like KQs. Like you said, it's a $2 sng.

I feel like by shoving, we get called by worse often enough and fold out mid pocket pairs often enough for the play to be profitable. And even against KK, we still win 30% of the time.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Shove. Flatting SUCKS here. Having zero fold equity is a fine thing if they're calling with AT+/22+ (hint: we're ahead of that range).

 

[c9h13no3]

check/fold.

I wrote something in bold, it might be applicable.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Shove. Flatting SUCKS here. Having zero fold equity is a fine thing if they're calling with AT+/22+ (hint: we're ahead of that range).

These ranges are silly.

A min three bet means strength, not weakness.

Shoving here is STUPID.

(hint: we are crushed or 50/50 most of the time.)

 

[WVHillbilly]

These ranges are silly.

A min three bet means strength, not weakness.

Shoving here is STUPID.

(hint: we are crushed or 50/50 most of the time.)

I'm just using what you said

I've noticed that in these $2 games - People don't fold after they make this type of play.

That's my whole problem with shoving. You have 0 fold equity. I seriously doubt this player will fold.

So what you're now saying is that in a $2 TURBO SnG people only min raise from the BTN with hands that crush us???? Really???? Did you see that villain called the shove with 33???? Do you think that he calls with 33 but folds AJ????

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I'm just using what you said



So what you're now saying is that in a $2 TURBO SnG people only min raise from the BTN with hands that crush us???? Really???? Did you see that villain called the shove with 33???? Do you think that he calls with 33 but folds AJ????

With hands that are ahead of us.

I missed that part but still - we are behind any pair preflop. We are NOT ahead of pocket pairs.

22+ (hint: we're ahead of that range) No we aren't.

(I don't think he would 3bet with ace jack if that's what you're asking)

Ace king behind:

 

[c9h13no3]

At this point the consensus has already been made that shoving > calling. I guess he's trying to save face by continuing to argue the same points as before?

 

[atlantafalcons0]

At this point the consensus has already been made that shoving > calling. I guess he's trying to save face by continuing to argue the same points as before?

Now you think I'm saving face?

It's a bad shove - no one has provided proof that a shove is +EV.

Just because a few people say, "Yea, I'd ship ace king there" doesn't mean anything.

Where's the proof???

Maybe it's in the pudding???

In this hand the chips were put into the pot BEHIND. That's all that matters to me. I like getting in with an edge, not BEHIND.

 

[WVHillbilly]

At this point the consensus has already been made that shoving > calling. I guess he's trying to save face by continuing to argue the same points as before?

Honestly I think he's just trying to say that AK is a drawing hand.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Honestly I think he's just trying to say that AK is a drawing hand.

You know it. When you're up against a pair it is.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Now you think I'm saving face?

It's a bad shove - no one has provided proof that a shove is +EV.

Just because a few people say, "Yea, I'd ship ace king there" doesn't mean anything.

Where's the proof???

Maybe it's in the pudding???

In this hand the chips were put into the pot BEHIND. That's all that matters to me. I like getting in with an edge, not BEHIND.

Actually the proof is in the range and we're ahead of his range here. You think he folds weaker Aces but calls with ALL pocket pairs and you're wrong.

Also the T$380 already in the pot provides us with more than enough dead money overlay to make up for the couple of % points we're behind when he calls with a smaller PP.

 

[jaded848]

In this hand the chips were put into the pot BEHIND. That's all that matters to me. I like getting in with an edge, not BEHIND.

It's impossible to narrow villain's range solely to a pocket pair. I think this is veering into a discussion on why it is much better to ship AK preflop than a mid pair because with the mid pair, you're racing or crushed but with AK you are usually racing or winning.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Actually the proof is in the range and we're ahead of his range here. You think he folds weaker Aces but calls withALL pocket pairsand you're wrong.

Also the T$380 already in the pot provides us with more than enough dead money overlay to make up for the couple of % points we're behind when he calls with a smaller PP.

I can't disagree more. Clearly we are not ahead of his range.

He had 33. We are behind 33. We are behind any pocket pair which happens to be his most likely holding.

What makes this a +EV shove? The fact that he could have a weak ace?

How much equity do we gain from winning?

How much equity do we lose from losing?

How much equity do we lose from folding?

How much equity do we gain if we shove and villian folds?

 

[jaded848]

Quoted from epinephrine (sorry couldn't help it, I was a chem major ):

"We have 10% equity if we fold.
We have 20% equity if we win."

Obviously if we lose we have 0 equity. Not sure about the shove/villain folds equity.

 

[Rldetheflop]

+ev comes from dead money+percentage of folds. You say villain never folds here but sometimes they will. Say a small percentage of the time you're crushing, a small percentage of the time you're crushed the rest of the time you are slightly behind or ahead. With the dead money you already have enough to make it marginally +ev but add in another say 10 percent folds(I think is low btw). its not even marginal anymore.

 

[dg1267]

I can't disagree more. Clearly we are not ahead of his range.

He had 33. We are behind 33. We are behind any pocket pair which happens to be his most likely holding.

No offense, atlanta, but do you know what they mean by "range". 33 is his actual hand. Nobody is disputing that we are behind if he min raises and lets us know he's holding 33. A2+, 22+ is his "range". We are ahead of that range 63% to 36%.

Since we don't know what he "actually" has, we have to go by what his range "might" be.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

No offense, atlanta, but do you know what they mean by "range". 33 is his actual hand. Nobody is disputing that we are behind if he min raises and lets us know he's holding 33. A2+, 22+ is his "range". We are ahead of that range 63% to 36%.

Since we don't know what he "actually" has, we have to go by what his range "might" be.

So his range to you guys is any ace hand and any pair???

It's too wide!

 

[WVHillbilly]

So his range to you guys is any ace hand and any pair???

It's too wide!

He min raised / called it off with 33, his range certainly includes enough weaker Aces to make shoving +Ev. AJ+/22+ is more than profitable.

Also lol at 33 being his range. I'm starting to think you suck at poker.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

This is too wide of a range.

A2+, 22+ is his "range".

He min raised / called it off with 33, his range certainly includes enough weaker Aces to make shoving +Ev. AJ+/22+ is more than profitable.

Also lol at 33 being his range. I'm starting to think you suck at poker.

Why would I care what you are starting to think???

You like to resort to name calling and insults instead of valid info.

Any pair has ace king beat here.

The outcome of the hand being posted hurt this discussion.

I'm starting to think you overvalue ace king WV.

:congrats:

 

[WVHillbilly]

This is too wide of a range.



Why would I care what you are starting to think???

You like to resort to name calling and insults instead of valid info.

Any pair has ace king beat here.

The outcome of the hand being posted hurt this discussion.

I'm starting to think you overvalue ace king WV.

:congrats:

Hard to overvalue a hand that is among my top 5 most profitable.

You might be surprised how good it is when you play it correctly and don't pussyfoot around playing fit or fold with it.

 

[dg1267]

Seriously, this thread is starting to reach epic LOLZ proportions.

Can we just say that this is one of the rare occasional spots where it's up to whoever is holding the AK?

 

[c9h13no3]

This thread needs a

.

Summary of the past few posts:

Falcon: His range is KK+!
Chorus: His range is wider than KK+, look he shoved 33!
Falcon: His range is just pairs!
Chorus: His range is wider than just pairs!
Falcon: We're behind 33!
Chorus: There's enough money in the pot to make shoving on 33 profitable!
Falcon: AK is a drawing hand! Lulz.
Chorus: Omfg >_<.

 

[dg1267]

I think it's just a misunderstanding, but I'm starting to wonder myself.

We know what the hand is now (it's 33 and we were behind, if only by a little). But what is being said by the "push" side of the argument is that if he's shoving he's shoving Ax we've got him beat. If he's shoving PP's, there is enough money in the pot to make a shove profitable because we still have a chance to beat him. The only thing we're really worried about is AA and KK because it takes away from our outs or has us seriously behind.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Range!

 

[atlantafalcons0]

This thread needs a

.

Summary of the past few posts:

Falcon: His range is KK+!
Chorus: His range is wider than KK+, look he shoved 33!
Falcon: His range is just pairs!
Chorus: His range is wider than just pairs!
Falcon: We're behind 33!
Chorus: There's enough money in the pot to make shoving on 33 profitable!
Falcon: AK is a drawing hand! Lulz.
Chorus: Omfg >_<.

I already said I'd call. Check/fold the flop unless i hit an ace or a king.

Why can't I think villian has a pair here?

How much equity do we gain if we shove and villian folds?