US Players - Are you playing online?

[hackmeplz]

I am a little surprised that anyone in the online poker would think that online poker in USA is illegal. Except under a couple of state laws, it is not.

Financial institutions affiliated with the Federal Reserve are prohibited from transacting with those EVIL online dens of iniquity.

If your favorite online site puts a layer of non-FederalReserve transaction between you and them---voila! not illegal. This might be why it takes longer to cash out these days.

The united states government is ONLY interested in a hefty chunk of the revenue stream, as always.

It is illegal for any online poker site to offer its services to people from ANY state in the US. Currently there is no regulatory framework available at the federal level or in any state, therefore all online poker sites are unlicensed in the US. All 50 states (to the best of my knowledge, I haven't actually checked) have laws against offering for-profit unlicensed gambling. The laws differ on whether unraked private games are legal or not but it's my understanding that all 50 states require a place offering gambling to be licensed (as a casino), therefore any online poker site is illegal at the state level in all 50 states.

Then we go to the federal level and see where it is illegal to offer unlawful internet gambling, which is defined as internet gambling that is illegal at the federal level or in any state which it is being offered. This gives the feds the power to prosecute any online poker site offering services to US players in any state. While the people saying that PLAYING is not illegal (other than in a few states) are correct, every single online poker site serving Americans is currently breaking the law in the US, and we have to be wary of the risk that any fines from the US government would cause them to just run with our money.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

It is illegal for any online poker site to offer its services to people from ANY state in the US. Currently there is no regulatory framework available at the federal level or in any state, therefore all online poker sites are unlicensed in the US. All 50 states (to the best of my knowledge, I haven't actually checked) have laws against offering for-profit unlicensed gambling. The laws differ on whether unraked private games are legal or not but it's my understanding that all 50 states require a place offering gambling to be licensed (as a casino), therefore any online poker site is illegal at the state level in all 50 states.

Then we go to the federal level and see where it is illegal to offer unlawful internet gambling, which is defined as internet gambling that is illegal at the federal level or in any state which it is being offered. This gives the feds the power to prosecute any online poker site offering services to US players in any state. While the people saying that PLAYING is not illegal (other than in a few states) are correct, every single online poker site serving Americans is currently breaking the law in the US, and we have to be wary of the risk that any fines from the US government would cause them to just run with our money.

Could you please quote/link to a source on this? I am looking for clarification on the whole thing. I have buddy who will not get back online because he's afraid it is illegal and he will get in trouble - YET the same guy who will not risk pennies on this will go to organized home games (up to 50 players) for up to $120 BI which are for sure contrary to this states law.

 

[UlysseNardin]

I'd rather take advice from an advanced member than someone clearly talking out of there ass

 

[msufan]

I've switched from 80% online play/20% live play to the opposite -- so although I still play, losing PS and FT has changed things for me.

 

[hackmeplz]

Could you please quote/link to a source on this? I am looking for clarification on the whole thing. I have buddy who will not get back online because he's afraid it is illegal and he will get in trouble - YET the same guy who will not risk pennies on this will go to organized home games (up to 50 players) for up to $120 BI which are for sure contrary to this states law.

Not sure what state you live in but in most states it is either legal or the law is not enforced against home games that don't take a rake. Once the game starts taking a rake though and the game is at risk of getting busted. Not sure what you mean by clarification though. Read the UIGEA, it allows the federal government to prosecute based on state law, and just search your own state legislation to see if running an unregulated (in the US anyway) for-profit poker room is legal. (I'll save you the trouble, it's illegal in all 50 states)

I'd rather take advice from an advanced member than someone clearly talking out of there ass

I've discussed this matter with various people who work for the ppa including the lawyer who does the lobbying on this (skallagrim) and the head of it (theEngineer). Not that it should matter because everything I said is very easily verifiable with a few google searches. But my point was I may be somewhat new to this forum but hopefully people realize that I may know a bit more than someone who doesn't even know the difference between there and their

 

[hackmeplz]

Could you please quote/link to a source on this? I am looking for clarification on the whole thing. I have buddy who will not get back online because he's afraid it is illegal and he will get in trouble - YET the same guy who will not risk pennies on this will go to organized home games (up to 50 players) for up to $120 BI which are for sure contrary to this states law.

Oh also I thought it was clear but unless he lives in a few select states playing online poker is not illegal. If the sites are legit even if busted he would still not lose money and no matter what he shouldn't worry about any legal troubles, whereas at least in my state when the police bust a game they confiscate all money from the house/players and don't return it. The issue is that like FTP and UB, it's possible that the sites are just trying to maximize short-term profits by serving Americans and that they will cut their losses and run with our money if the US government goes after them. Obviously that's just speculation but in light of what happened on BF I think it's legit speculation.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

If the sites are legit even if busted he would still not lose money and no matter what he shouldn't worry about any legal troubles, whereas at least in my state when the police bust a game they confiscate all money from the house/players and don't return it.

This is my point exactly - but he seems unwilling to take my word for it so I was asking if you could point me to a legal authority, or Q and A, or something online I could forward to him (since it appears you've done your homework).

I have not yet told him what a contradiction he is playing these live games - it just hit me a couple of days ago when he started up a league he is involved with that has a per session buy-in as big as the biggest tourney at the casinos here in town. I am going to bring it up the next time the online discussion hits, though.

I have even sent him screen grabs of my free-roll wins to show he doesn't even have to make a deposit to get going and still won't comeback online. I feel weird cause this is the guy who prompted and prodded and got me started.

 

[hackmeplz]

http://theppa.org/about/faq/#faq7

4. Is playing poker legal in the United States?
Generally, playing poker in a social setting in one’s home is legal in most, but not all, states. Some states permit playing social games of poker in taverns and bars, while very few states allow commercial poker games.
Increasingly, however, government officials have undertaken “crackdowns” on the playing of poker in traditional settings, including at charity events. These stories are detailed in the News section of this Web site.
The Internet poses separate issues. There is currently no federal law that prohibits anyone from playing poker online. The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, does not change any federal gambling laws and does not make it illegal for people to play on the Internet (Note: some states do have laws, like Washington St. which have criminal penalties for online play). However, on April 15, 2011 the U.S. Department of Justice upped the ante and has shut down some of the leading global online poker providers. This has effectively cut-off US poker players to these sites and seriously restricted the rights of Americans to play online poker.
For more information about your state visit our legal resources page. Click here to learn more.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Thank you - do you happen to have anything on the alleged clarification that the UGIEA is defining sports betting as the gambling it is talking about and not poker? Or something to that effect. I probably have it all screwed up - that's why I'm asking.

 

[kilgoretrout]

I'm trying to deposit money on Carbon poker. They do not have a visa card option anymore. One option is still wire transfer. However they want me to transfer the money to some random person in the phillipines. It seems sketchy to me. Is it really legit(meaning my deposit will get into my account in a timely manner)? Has anybody else deposited money through the wrie transfer? what was your experience?
FYI i live in New Jersey. I'm not sure what my specific state laws are regarding online poker.

 

[Roller]

Merge
Revolution
Bovada

Kinna like asking at church, how many people here goto church.

 

[dmorris68]

Thank you - do you happen to have anything on the alleged clarification that the UGIEA is defining sports betting as the gambling it is talking about and not poker? Or something to that effect. I probably have it all screwed up - that's why I'm asking.

The UIGEA does not define any sort of gambling, sports betting or otherwise. It merely prohibits the processing of financial transactions on behalf of online gambling operations that have already been deemed illegal through other legislation, whether federal, state, or local. And regardless of the legality of the gambling operation in question, In no way does UIGEA criminalize the act of playing. The Wire Act is the legislation that the DOJ often quoted in the past when referring to the legality of online poker, but last year they restated their position that The Wire Act in fact only applies to intrastate sports betting and not to online poker.

Only a handful of states specifically prohibit playing online poker, and no federal statutes do. Again, this is why we say it has never been illegal -- save for those few states -- to play online poker.

As has been mentioned, a number of additional states have statutes against hosting a poker game for real money, or against collecting rake. Those however have nothing to do with either online gaming, The Wire Act, or the UIGEA.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

The UIGEA does not define any sort of gambling, sports betting or otherwise. It merely prohibits the processing of financial transactions on behalf of online gambling operations that have already been deemed illegal through other legislation, whether federal, state, or local. And regardless of the legality of the gambling operation in question, In no way does UIGEA criminalize the act of playing. The Wire Act is the legislation that the DOJ often quoted in the past when referring to the legality of online poker, but last year they restated their position that The Wire Act in fact only applies to intrastate sports betting and not to online poker.

Only a handful of states specifically prohibit playing online poker, and no federal statutes do. Again, this is why we say it has never been illegal -- save for those few states -- to play online poker.

As has been mentioned, a number of additional states have statutes against hosting a poker game for real money, or against collecting rake. Those however have nothing to do with either online gaming, The Wire Act, or the UIGEA.

Yes, this is exactly what I was referring to and thanks for the overview (which is exactly the way I was understanding it) - but I am looking for some hard evidence of these facts that goes beyond, "well dmorris said in the CC forum..."

And PPA ain't it - they kind of have a bias on this issue.

 

[dmorris68]

Well, Google is your friend -- there are any number of legal resources and treatises that have been written on the subject. If you want to take the easy path and are comfortable trusting Wikipedia, you can read their UIGEA article, from which I quote some relevant sections:

The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (or UIGEA) is United States legislation regulating online gambling. It was added as Title VIII to the SAFE Port Act (found at 31 U.S.C. §§ 5361–5367) which otherwise regulated port security. It "prohibits gambling businesses from knowingly accepting payments in connection with the participation of another person in a bet or wager that involves the use of the Internet and that is unlawful under any federal or state law."[1] The act specifically excludes fantasy sports, that meet certain requirements, and legal intra-state and inter-tribal gaming. It does not expressly mention state lotteries; nor does it clarify whether inter-state wagering on horse racing is legal.
...
The United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit rule in November 2002[2] that Federal Wire Act prohibits electronic transmission of information for sports betting across telecommunications lines but affirmed a lower court ruling that the Wire Act "'in plain language' does not prohibit Internet gambling on a game of chance." While some states have specific laws prohibiting online gambling, many do not. Additionally, in order for an online gaming company to start, a license from the state is required. No states currently give out online gambling licenses.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Google is indeed my friend, but you know whats better than me a Google? A whole forum on a similar mission and Google BTW, thanks! Your overview gave me a fresh outlook on the subject to search again and come up with better results.

Notice National Law Review articles

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanv...t-of-justice-flip-flops-on-internet-gambling/

http://www.natlawreview.com/article/new-doj-wire-act-opinion-paves-way-to-legal-online-poker

http://www.natlawreview.com/article/doj-s-reversal-wire-act-what-it-means-internet-gaming

 

[whytegold]

Well thats what i call a UPDATE!!! Hackmeplz

 

[always2away]

Quote: Originally Posted by hackmeplz


It is illegal for any online poker site to offer its services to people from ANY state in the US. Currently there is no regulatory framework available at the federal level or in any state, therefore all online poker sites are unlicensed in the US. All 50 states (to the best of my knowledge, I haven't actually checked) have laws against offering for-profit unlicensed gambling. The laws differ on whether unraked private games are legal or not but it's my understanding that all 50 states require a place offering gambling to be licensed (as a casino), therefore any online poker site is illegal at the state level in all 50 states.

Then we go to the federal level and see where it is illegal to offer unlawful internet gambling, which is defined as internet gambling that is illegal at the federal level or in any state which it is being offered. This gives the feds the power to prosecute any online poker site offering services to US players in any state. While the people saying that PLAYING is not illegal (other than in a few states) are correct, every single online poker site serving Americans is currently breaking the law in the US, and we have to be wary of the risk that any fines from the US government would cause them to just run with our money.

What you claim is likely accurate. Is jurisdiction now meaningless to the Feds? It might be as they do not seem to give a crap about it here, so perhaps they feel they can get away with ignoring it everywhere. I am fairly certain that other jurisdictions might get their panties in a twist over it.

Are you claiming that in the event of no direct tie to the Federal Reserve system in either funding my poker account and/or cashing out that the US government can legally claim that a crime has been committed?

Doesn't the "unlicensed gambling" need to occur within the jurisdiction of the US?

Last I checked, the US government does not own the internet. When I play poker I am accessing a remote server. I am not the server. Wouldn't their server need to be sitused within the borders of the US in order for the activity to be illegal under US law?

Stars, UB, and FullTilt acted on some alarmingly HORRIBLE legal advice when they began running their money through banks that were part of the Federal Reserve System. All of a sudden crimes were being committed because JURISDICTION had been breached through stupidity.

If I am stupid, kindly explain to me, in comportment with legal precedence and opinion-free, just how stupid I am.

Thanks

 

[hackmeplz]

What you claim is likely accurate. Is jurisdiction now meaningless to the Feds? It might be as they do not seem to give a crap about it here, so perhaps they feel they can get away with ignoring it everywhere. I am fairly certain that other jurisdictions might get their panties in a twist over it.

Are you claiming that in the event of no direct tie to the Federal Reserve system in either funding my poker account and/or cashing out that the US government can legally claim that a crime has been committed?

Doesn't the "unlicensed gambling" need to occur within the jurisdiction of the US?

Last I checked, the US government does not own the internet. When I play poker I am accessing a remote server. I am not the server. Wouldn't their server need to be sitused within the borders of the US in order for the activity to be illegal under US law?

Stars, UB, and FullTilt acted on some alarmingly HORRIBLE legal advice when they began running their money through banks that were part of the Federal Reserve System. All of a sudden crimes were being committed because JURISDICTION had been breached through stupidity.

If I am stupid, kindly explain to me, in comportment with legal precedence and opinion-free, just how stupid I am.

Thanks

You're not stupid at all, it's all super confusing, and I certainly don't understand all of it, I'm just repeating what I've read from experts on the topic. When a company, regardless of where it is based, offers services to residents of that state, it is deemed to be doing business in that state and responsible for complying with the laws of that state. If you think about it this is actually a good thing in general, as otherwise it would be extremely easy to skirt state/federal laws by simply using the internet. This happens to be a law we all disagree with so we dislike it, but as a general principle many things (think piracy in particular) would simply be impossible to enforce unless we enforced the rules as they are.

 

[SofaKingCrazy]

Lots of grey area for this subject but I also believe there are no federal laws against the playing of poker online but only the transfer of funds to and from the sites.

The latest ruling by a federal judge is very interesting and I believe this will be a pivotal point in our battle to get back on sites like pokerstars.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ny-judge-pokers-gambling-federal-law-17052146#.UDt8sMGPV9n

Lastly, as far as my state goes (Virginia) all home, club, bar, ect. games are legal as long as the "house" doesn't collect a rake or fee for hosting the activity and we have several in close proximity to me that do so every weekend or Friday night without any problems. Now if we can just get a casino in this state. LOL

:evil:

 

[hackmeplz]

Lots of grey area for this subject but I also believe there are no federal laws against the playing of poker online but only the transfer of funds to and from the sites.

You're right and to clarify the laws against the transfer of funds are against banks and poker sites not players whose money it is. You can deposit, play, and withdraw and you are breaking 0 federal laws. Check your state laws to see if you are breaking any state laws.

 

[4thandinches]

I'm trying to deposit money on Carbon poker. They do not have a visa card option anymore. One option is still wire transfer. However they want me to transfer the money to some random person in the phillipines. It seems sketchy to me. Is it really legit(meaning my deposit will get into my account in a timely manner)? Has anybody else deposited money through the wrie transfer? what was your experience?
FYI i live in New Jersey. I'm not sure what my specific state laws are regarding online poker.

If you are going to deposit at Carbon Poker, the best way is to physically go to a place that offers Western Union. Even though there are fees involved, you get your money into your account rather quickly. On the other hand, I have heard that many people, including my brother have had major issues when depositing on their site via credit cards.

 

[4thandinches]

And yes, it is VERY safe to deposit money to some random person in the Philippines. I have done it more times than I care to admit with my offshore sportsbook. Just make sure that you put USD after the Philippines (so it is done in US dollars and not local currency).

 

[Reptar7]

I'm trying to deposit money on Carbon poker. They do not have a visa card option anymore. One option is still wire transfer. However they want me to transfer the money to some random person in the phillipines. It seems sketchy to me. Is it really legit(meaning my deposit will get into my account in a timely manner)? Has anybody else deposited money through the wrie transfer? what was your experience?
FYI i live in New Jersey. I'm not sure what my specific state laws are regarding online poker.

If you have money on another poker site you could swap with someone on 2+2. That's how I move money around now.

 

[hackmeplz]

If you just buy with paypal or something on 2p2 you can actually collect a vig (aka pay like $900 paypal for 1k carbon)

 

[fred5584]

where can I buy via paypal, is there a forun on CC (or elsewhere) for this? or do you know someone who can sell poker funds for paypal?