POT/HAND ODDS HELP

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xdmanx007

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ok rule of 4 has nothing to do with the pot it strictly gives you an idea of your chances of hitting your hand. Pot odds strictly deal with the money in the pot not the cards in your hand. Compare the 2 factors(or outs to pot odds) and you get expectation, what result you expect from the hand, which alot of you are confusing with pot odds! Now if you can figure the odds of your draw falling on both cards how is that less useful than doing it for 1 card to come? Key point though is terminology cause looks like for the most part everybody has a decent understanding the terms especially pot odds just seem to be getting interchanged too much.
 
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MicheleW

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What it really comes down to is - weighing the relationship of your pot odds to the odds of making your hand - and go from there and make your decision to play.

Check out the charts available and you will understand it a little better.

And if you take all the time to figure out your pot odd, implied odds, turn card odds, river card odds, what should I do?? LOL, I'm sure your fellow players will be on your case to just -- PLAY!!!!
 
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xdmanx007

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MicheleW said:
What it really comes down to is - weighing the relationship of your pot odds to the odds of making your hand - and go from there and make your decision to play.

Check out the charts available and you will understand it a little better.

And if you take all the time to figure out your pot odd, implied odds, turn card odds, river card odds, what should I do?? LOL, I'm sure your fellow players will be on your case to just -- PLAY!!!!
:) They can get on my case as much as they want if they wanna bitch about somebody taking their allowed time to make a decision then they need to go back to playing play money chips. Like I said it isn't critical to get the number precise but you better be able to get them close if you ever want to be a successful poker player.
 
MicheleW

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A real easy way to calculate hand odds is:

Take your outs X 4 for the turn and add 1
Take your outs X 2 for the river and add 1

You will get VERY close to the correct odds, maybe a couple 10th off.
 
Jesus Lederer

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Four Dogs said:
Sammy, I think what Jesus is trying to say is that, as the Rule of 4 is usefull in determining your pot odds with 2 cards to come, it is in effect useless in all practicality because you should only be concerned with your odds of hitting the next card. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it useless, but technically he's correct. Its variation, the Rule of 2, is equally convenient for that purpose. But lets not dismiss the big brother. There are several common situations where you need to figure your pot odds with 2 cards to come. Here are some examples.
1) The most obvious application is the forced All-In. Are the pot odds favorable? Remember, once you call, your opponent can't make you bet again. 2) This is my favorite! When the 1st bet will leave you short stacked, it is often the case that when you miss your draw, your opponent will no longer be able to raise enough to make a final call unproffitable. You may in fact get far better odds than you need to see the river. This should be taken into account on your previous bet. Unless your playing with Chris Ferguson it's unlikely that your opponent considered this. 3) Your Implied Pot Odds, a more abstract concept which XDMANX touched upon, justify the 2 combined bets. Implied odds are tough to figure. There's no cute math trick for this. It's really more of a confidence level that, when you draw out, the future size of the pot will justify your first 2 bets. In short, when you hit, your gonna rake it in! How the heck are you supposed to know that? Good 'ol poker instincts, my greatest failing.
Finally we have reached to a point were we both agree. I know that maybe i exaggerated saying "useless". I was refering just to the most common situations. But poker is a game where you have to adjust your play to the different situations. So your 3 points are absolutely right. I have a poker situation example for your 3rd point:
You are on a flush draw on the turn so you need 4:1 pot odds to call. Your opponent bets offering you 3:1 pot odds. You probably think you should fold, but that can be a wrong move. Here is when implied odds acts. You have to anticipate the next betting round. If you catch your draw, maybe your opponent is going to call a bet on the river, so you´re anticipating 4:1 pot odds, which means a right call.

So fourdogs, we both were right.

xdmanx, thanks for saying the correct terms. I´m a newbie and i don´t know all the correct terms (like i didn´t know the difference between trips and set you said on another thread). I understand my ideas and what i´m trying to say, but sorry if i cannot explain them because of the wrong terms i use and my bad english.
Now i know exactly when to use the term pot odds and the difference between it and "expectation". Almost all the time i was really talking about expectation and not pot odds. But i think there´s no mistake on the mathematical situation i wrote before of why not using the rule of 4 after the flop to calculate your hand odds and them comparing them with your pot odds, except on the 3 situation that fourdogs gave.

Poker is a game of unknown factors, so that´s why all the mathematical things aren´t going to work as you expected everytime, and that´s why you have put a read on your opponents and when you cannot do math, you need to beliebe in your instinctsto have some other strategies to win the hand. Odds calculation are just a part (very big, but it´s not all) of your entire arsenal. But it´s very useful to have a general idea of where are you standing at a hand and when it´s correct to call or fold.
 
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absolutely no need tp apologise;) Glad to try and help. Especially players who want to learn! My pleasure
 
twizzybop

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Most simpliest of odds to remember for those who don't like math.

Flush draw.. 35% of making it drawn down to the river after the flop.

Yet lets say before the flop you have AX suited and someone calls all-in. Would it be justifiable to make the call because pot odds are now 2:1?

"nut flush draw for simplicity".

I know king,queen, jack, 10 could make for the straight draw.. Just keeping it simple I hope, just aiming for a strong flush draw.
 
Jesus Lederer

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twizzybop said:
Most simpliest of odds to remember for those who don't like math.

Flush draw.. 35% of making it drawn down to the river after the flop.

Yet lets say before the flop you have AX suited and someone calls all-in. Would it be justifiable to make the call because pot odds are now 2:1?

"nut flush draw for simplicity".

I know king,queen, jack, 10 could make for the straight draw.. Just keeping it simple I hope, just aiming for a strong flush draw.
Very strange question.
If you´re thinking just about getting the flush, your hand odds are like 12% (i think). But why did you say that pot odds are now 2:1? You said that as supposition? If you get 2:1 pot odds, then you shouldn´t make the call. Because you ratio hand odds are 7:1, and the pot odds are 2:1. The pot odds have to be greater than your hand odds to make a profitable call, and on the situation you told you are not even near to make a good call.

I think that you committed some mistakes on your question. I think you tried to say this: "Let´s say you have AX suited. After the flop you have flush draw and someone goes all-in. If you know that only the flush make your hand winner and the all in bet was equal to the pot size making the pot odds 2:1, would it be justifiable to make the call because pot odds are 2:1?"

Now the answer is yes. Why? Because if you´re on a flush draw you use the rule of 4 and you get that your hand odds are 2:1. The way you calculated that hand odds was useful just because you know that there is not going to be a bet on the turn (because the player went all in), if the player wasn´t all in, you hand odds would be 4:1.
Like your hand odds, also your pot odds are 2:1, so that makes a right call.

I also think that you confused the hand odds (35% = 2:1) with the pot odds (2:1 if the bet is equal to the pot size)
Hand odds are the chances of making your hand (in this case catching the flush) and pot odds are the money that you have to pay compared to the pot size. Xdmanx made the corrections before, but i repeated it because it´s important to use the right terms so everybody can understand the same thing.

ps: as xdmanx said, i want to learn. Maybe all what i said was wrong, so please tell me if i am wrong, specially you fourdogs, because i know you´re going to be next to post on this thread.
 
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Four Dogs

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xdmanx007 said:
ok rule of 4 has nothing to do with the pot it strictly gives you an idea of your chances of hitting your hand. Pot odds strictly deal with the money in the pot not the cards in your hand.
OK, I'm not sure who you were directing this comment to, maybe both of us. The Rule of 4 has nothing to do with Pot Odds? PO's are by definition, the relationship between the money in the pot and your chance of winning it.It is not possible to determine your Pot Odds without first determining your chance of winning. Is everyone in agreement? I don't recall stating that The Rule of 4 would by itself give you your Pot Odds. It is merely a very simple method of determining one of the 2 variables in the equation.
 
Jesus Lederer

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Four Dogs said:
OK, I'm not sure who you were directing this comment to, maybe both of us. The Rule of 4 has nothing to do with Pot Odds? PO's are by definition, the relationship between the money in the pot and your chance of winning it.It is not possible to determine your Pot Odds without first determining your chance of winning. Is everyone in agreement? I don't recall stating that The Rule of 4 would by itself give you your Pot Odds. It is merely a very simple method of determining one of the 2 variables in the equation.
Is everyone in agreement?...well, i´m not.
By definition pot odds are a ratio of the amount of money in the pot compared with how much money it takes to call.
Xdmanx gave that definition before and i also did in my last post.
The relation between the hand odds (chances of winning the pot) and the pot odds is called "EXPECTATION".
 
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MicheleW

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I'll guarantee ya ... 9 out of 10 players here don't understand a thing that was said, don't use pot odds when playing, don't use hand odds when playing, and probably won't ever understand this thread fully ... me included. :D So it now becomes at discussion between 2 or 3 people.

I suggest anyone wanting to understand all this get some books like Jesus. Then read and re-read. :)
 
Four Dogs

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I'm not sure what it is that Jesus is reading, but I'm done discussing the matter.
 
diabloblanco

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How can you play poker and expect to be a consistant winner if you don't understand and use pot and implied odds? The rule of four is a way to evaluate your hand which is but one of the two variables in the equation to determine correct pot odds.
 
Jesus Lederer

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MicheleW said:
I'll guarantee ya ... 9 out of 10 players here don't understand a thing that was said, don't use pot odds when playing, don't use hand odds when playing, and probably won't ever understand this thread fully ... me included. :D So it now becomes at discussion between 2 or 3 people.

I suggest anyone wanting to understand all this get some books like Jesus. Then read and re-read. :)
lol, i haven´t read a poker book in my whole life. Just some tips (i try to study, understand and apply them, not just reading them) and lot of practice. And of course as you can see i like very much math stuff.
I know this has become a discussion between 2 or 3 people, so like dogs i´m going to stop posting here.

Four Dogs said:
I'm not sure what it is that Jesus is reading, but I'm done discussing the matter.
As i said, i haven´t read a book.

"but I´m done discussing the matter"? that means i won the discussion! Yeah! You surrendered first! I finally got a piece of you!!! LOL

diabloblanco said:
How can you play poker and expect to be a consistant winner if you don't understand and use pot and implied odds? The rule of four is a way to evaluate your hand which is but one of the two variables in the equation to determine correct pot odds.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....diablo, now you? Did you read all my post?
For third time, the definition of pot odds is: "a ratio of the amount of money in the pot compared with how much money it takes to call"
According to that definition, pot odds variables are:

1) Pot size
2) Bet size

For example, is there is a bet of $20 into a $60 pot, the pot odds are:
80 ($60 + $20):20 = 4:1.
No hand odds there. No chances of winning the pot. Just a bet to call into a determined pot.

The rule of 4 is one variable in the equation to determine correct "EXPECTATION" . The other variable is pot odds. And also there are implied odds, but for the moment let´s keep them out.

Everybody is happy now? (if you have some question please make it, but first try to read the previous posts)
 
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diabloblanco

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Look man, when someone refers to pot odds, they are refering to the ratio of the bet to the size of the pot compared to the number of possible outs in the deck as a ratio. The size of the bet/the size of the pot is simply a number when standing alone, but combined with the ratio of your outs/cards remaining gives you your answer as to wether or not calling has a positive expectation or not.
 
Jesus Lederer

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diabloblanco said:
Look man, when someone refers to pot odds, they are refering to the ratio of the bet to the size of the pot compared to the number of possible outs in the deck as a ratio. The size of the bet/the size of the pot is simply a number when standing alone, but combined with the ratio of your outs/cards remaining gives you your answer as to wether or not calling has a positive expectation or not.
According to my knowledge, pot odds are what i said. Just a number when standing alone. You have to compare it with the hand odds to know the expectation.
If you see the first posts i made on this thread i used the term "pot odds" like you now, but then xdmanx correct me saying that i was wrong, that pot odds were just in relation to the money of the pot. I searched for some information in relation to pot odds and almost everywhere it said the definition that xdmanx gave.
So if i´m wrong it´s xdmanx´s fault, and if i´m right i´m the best! LOL

Anyway, if we analize this deeply, our "fight" has no sense. We´re discussing about definitions and terms, but what it really matters is that we can understand the ideas, and i guess we both did. The correct terms are important if everyone want to understand the same, but since this is a discussion between 2 o 3, i think it doesn´t matter.

ps: Sorry Sammy for complicating your thread to this point. I will try to send you a private message with the basics of the odds.

diabloblanco said:
Its a symantical argument at this point. When pros refer to having correct pot odds to call, they are also considering their outs as well. How could the ratio of bet to pot size let you know wether or not to call without factoring in the number of outs you have? Anyway, like four dogs, I'm done.
I also have heard from pros that pot odds is the relation between the money to invest into a pot and your chances of winning. As i said, xdmanx told me the other thing and i also saw the same information in some sites, but it really doesn´t matter. I join you and fourdogs, i´m also done.
 
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diabloblanco

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Its a symantical argument at this point. When pros refer to having correct pot odds to call, they are also considering their outs as well. How could the ratio of bet to pot size let you know wether or not to call without factoring in the number of outs you have? Anyway, like four dogs, I'm done.
 
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Pot odds is the amount of money compared to the amount needed to call. Like I said alot of people use the term pot odds incorrectly. They properly apply expectation but they call it pot odds! Implied odds/pot odds compared to the odds of hitting your hand(outs over unseen cards) equals expectation. The end result isn't pot odds the end result is expectation. Pot odds is a variable in an equation. Expectation is the answer:banghead:
 
MicheleW

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Hi All - I am reading a very good poker book and it says that you RARELY use pot odds in No Limit Poker - so is this discussion moot?

I guess if you are playing LIMIT then proceed. :)
 
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MicheleW said:
Hi All - I am reading a very good poker book and it says that you RARELY use pot odds in No Limit Poker - so is this discussion moot?

I guess if you are playing LIMIT then proceed. :)
LOL talk about opening up another can of worms! Very true you just need an aproximate number in NL. But seeing as how I recommend to any poker player that they learn LIMIT first! I feel proper understanding of odds and expectation is critical to becoming a good player
 
Sammyv1

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ps: Sorry Sammy for complicating your thread to this point. I will try to send you a private message with the basics of the odds.[
That would be cool, and yes it is a little complicated but I THINK I'm getting it.
 
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Yeah yeah.... The old saying those who can do... those that can't teach probably applies here:ciao:
 
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MicheleW

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Those who can, do - those who can't, teach !! Gotcha!! LOL
 
diabloblanco

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XD, I agree. And was incorrect in how I worded my replies. However, it is so widely used in the incorrect manner in which I explained it, that it has basically taken on that meaning. How many times do they use expectation in the right place when someone at a final table goes into the tank? Commentators and announcers say something to the effect that they are calculating their pot or implied odds, not figuring their expectation. You are correct, but you would know what I meant instantly if I said to you, "I called because I was getting the right odds."
 
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