Martin
Scokyl's Scoundrels
Administrator
Now that changes have taken place everyone now needs to update their profile with their new partypoker alias and for Leaderboard purposes need to add their new alias to this thread *New* partypoker Leaderboard Member list
Cajin007
Visionary
Silver Level
There is one way PartyPoker can reduce the use of HUDs, and keep Hand Histories.
Simply allow players to be able to request Hand Histories ONCE per 24 Hours.
Players would only receive Histories for completed games, and no History of any game being currently played till next request.
That way players can still track gameplay, look for inconsistencies/collusion/misc.
Otherwise, those that really and truly wish game the system, will find a way to do so. And the ones that will suffer, will be the ones the site are trying to bring in.
Simply allow players to be able to request Hand Histories ONCE per 24 Hours.
Players would only receive Histories for completed games, and no History of any game being currently played till next request.
That way players can still track gameplay, look for inconsistencies/collusion/misc.
Otherwise, those that really and truly wish game the system, will find a way to do so. And the ones that will suffer, will be the ones the site are trying to bring in.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Can you suggest this on their social media pages? And in the Partypoker thread on CC. (I guess there isn't an official thread on 2p2 anymore but there's still an 'unofficial' thread running there)
GRIN281289
Legend
Bronze Level
I am for it to be canceled. He is not in live poker and should not be in online poker either. Level the chances of all players
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F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
PartyPoker can just inform producers of tracking software, that HUDs are no longer allowed on the site, and then of course they will comply. On 888 for instance HUDs are not allowed on their fast fold "Snap" tables, so when I play these the HUD will not pop up, even my PT4 is running.
Sure I can then still review my opponents away from the table in my PT4 database. But who is going to bother doing that with recreational players in a 10$ game? There are 1.000`s of them, and you have so few hands on each, that you would have no time left to actually play.
So removing hand histories has nothing to do with HUDs. If there is any legitimate reason at all, then it is to prevent the datamining, which is carried out by certain companies, who then sell life time results and stats of poker players to other poker players.
This has for sure harmed online poker, but there must be better ways to fight these sites than getting rid of hand histories completely. And having to ask for them daily is so unpractical, its absolutely not an acceptable solution.
zam220
Legend
Bronze Level
Partypoker has updated the client
June 17, Partypoker has updated the client !Immediately after installing the update when you log in to the client will need to change the nickname.The ban on auxiliary software was fully confirmed. I do not use auxiliary software and this news pleased me!I would like to know your opinion about the cancellation of the support software,is it better or worse for the players ?
June 17, Partypoker has updated the client !Immediately after installing the update when you log in to the client will need to change the nickname.The ban on auxiliary software was fully confirmed. I do not use auxiliary software and this news pleased me!I would like to know your opinion about the cancellation of the support software,is it better or worse for the players ?
Andrew Popov
Legend
Bronze Level
I used to use such programs (for example: Poker Tracker 4), but about a year ago I stopped and started learning how to play without them. The soon widespread prohibition of such software was already evident then. This is a vital need for online poker, if we want to play without bots and hints - you need to restrict direct access to the statistics during the game at the table.
But there are two big minuses:
First - you lose the ability to analyze your game. You can no longer just open the story and see how you play your hands, identify and correct mistakes, find weaknesses.
Secondly - the lack of history opens up room for abuse by the poker room, as well as dishonest players - in some cases you will not even know the nicknames of the players you play with!
But there are two big minuses:
First - you lose the ability to analyze your game. You can no longer just open the story and see how you play your hands, identify and correct mistakes, find weaknesses.
Secondly - the lack of history opens up room for abuse by the poker room, as well as dishonest players - in some cases you will not even know the nicknames of the players you play with!
D
dgroes
Visionary
Silver Level
banning HUDs may please some recs indeed. There are Apps that can read fr screen I´ve heard without being a 3rd party App. Regs are not pleased about being required to change name and lost hand histories and play records and notes about their opponents.
I don´t know what to think. It may or may not work for partypoker in the long term.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Why do you think, that bots rely on hand histories? The easiest and most common way to program a computer to play poker, is to let it play in a supposedly GTO (game theory optimal) way, that nobody can beat. Or maybe you try to let it exploit player pool tendencies by for instance overfolding in certain spots, where people tend to not bluff.
It is the exact other way around, because hand histories is, what allowed players at PartyPoker to detect suspicious accounts and report them to the site. Now this detection by players is no longer possible, and has been written many times this does for sure make the site LESS safe not more.
alienat3d
easy-going alien grinder
Bronze Level
It seems to me that Cardschat split down the middle on the issue about that topic. Just like probably whole worldwide community lately.
I'm obviously with those part, who says "it's a big mistake" and "an illegitimate takeoff of our rights and security".
I just can't understand your euphoria about that! I think most (if not all) of you, who applauds for that change just don't see the whole picture...
Yes, when PartyPoker disabled downloadable hand histories, they are automatically disturbed legal hand database and tracker software, like PT4, HM2, Hand2Note etc. But it doesn't mean there will be no individuals anymore who will play with HUD.
There are enough illegal 3rd party software with HUD, that is not allowed to use by any of poker rooms, but some are still will be used by cheaters. But unlike with legal HUDs (which only collecting information from hand histories), such software also gives much more information, that gives really an edge even to a bad play, such as in-built EV calcs and based on calculations advice what line more profitable to take. Such things are never been used by legal software for ethical reasons, this is why basically it still legal on the most poker rooms.
Those black HUDs don't need any hand history and they use either screen-scrappers (a special software that logging action directly from the screen) or black data-mining databases (which been collected by bots-observers by black market merchants in order to sell it to the cheaters, who use such "black HUDs"). And the whole time such cheaters mostly been exposed by the players, who analyze their hands and found out suspicious luck of some players, who just always play right. So they send hands as evidence to poker room support for the further investigations and the cheaters get banned.
Also don't be naive, thinking that bots will be eliminated, when PartyPoker disable downloadable hand histories. In fact, there will be even more of them, as the players can't report any suspicious activity anymore, as the players had taken away the only evidence they had - hand histories. Just imagine for a minute, you were such kind of cheater, who use bots? Wouldn't you love this update and migrate all of your bots to play at PartyPoker instantly?
I remind you once again, that PartyPoker in their own blog reported that, for April 2019, “39 account closures in the month, 38.5% (15) were directly attributed to reports submitted by PartyPoker players.”
I hope you understand, that numbers won't change that fast in this or in the following months. Which means, as players can't help anymore, there is a big lack of security in PartyPoker from now on!
While you may not use a hand history database, the players that do use them are helping to protect every poker player. When a player detects suspicious play or patterns of potential cheating via the analytics in their PokerTracker or Holdem Manager hand history database, they are often detecting cheating rings, chip dumpers, and bots that have cheated 1000’s of players prior to being discovered.
Also, in addition, I want to say, that using HUD is way much overrated. If you are a bad player and download a HUD, you won't automatically become better. If not believing me, you might try a trial version for one month of every legal HUD like PT4 or HM2 or Hand2Note. You will quickly realize, that it helps just a little faster to figure if someone loose or tight for any more additional information, that you may rely on, you actually need thousands of hands, which is very hard to get or almost impossible at MTTs for example.
Also, if you don't know how to read HUD proper it can be very misleading. In fact, many people even start playing worse with HUD, as they too much rely on it. I use HUD myself already some years, but it's just a slightly help for me to figure out a little faster who is a fish and who is a reg, who is tight and who is loose-goose. Ah yeah and it helps to calculate how many big blinds which stack consist too. That's basically the biggest use of my HUD.
But believe me, all these things regulars can do also without HUD, it just takes 10-20 minutes longer to figure. Or a few seconds to convert chips to blinds. And it might be harder to play many tables like 12 at once, as you need more to concentrate on the action. But it's not really kind of problem.
But in the end, with HUD or without, bad players keep loosing and good players keep winning. It's really a made-up story for recreational players to attract them to play on PartyPoker, that if you take away HUD from sharks, they will automatically lose the most of their edge and fish start winning more. That's just ridiculous really. And adult people shouldn't believe fairy tales so easily.
It will be more like, good players migrate to play somewhere else and being replaced by cheaters and bots, who love to be well masked. But in the end, bad players will lose money to them as well. So it's not a good deal for recreational players actually.
At the same time, PartyPoker will be losing a huge amount of their earnings, that regulars been grinding for them daily. They will feel it very soon and it will hurt.
I can't believe they ever attract so much recreationals, who could cover that.
Also, on my own example and I think it's the same with all regulars, who take their game seriously, the prohibition of HUD is not such a big deal, as the fact, that we can't tag, download, copy & past our hands, that we played, in order to analyze them and learn something from it. I'm absolutely sure, that it's essential for any solid player, who want to develop his skills and improve his game or just having the ability to ask poker buddy/ community for a hint how to play on that or another spot. This is the main reason, why I don't want to play on PartyPoker for real money anymore. And I think most of the regs leave this room, just because of that, not because of HUD.
And at the end of this post, I also want to remind you of the story of Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker. One of the biggest cheating scandals in online poker history involved poker site “insiders” cheating their own players. These cheating scandals were only detected because players had the ability to analyze hand histories and then reported their findings publicly.
Well, I don't want to blame PartyPoker for anything yet, as I never heard they been involved in such scandals yet, but you never know. From now on, they can do what they want and guess what? You have no evidence anymore! The hand histories are gone.
Tell me, if you really still happy about that updates after reading my post or there are doubts? If you doubt now, then this post wasn't a waste of my time. Thanks for reading. And sorry that it was a bit long, but I had a lot to say.
p.s. I loved PartyPoker before too, but this update is just a kick in the nuts. And in my opinion it doesn't favor any player, it just taking the rights from the players and letting PartyPoker or Cheaters do what they want without being on risk to be exposed.
p.p.s. I strongly believe we shouldn't appreciate this and better tell them they are wrong.
Because if other poker rooms start to do the same thing, we're in trouble. Then, as a solid player, you really can forget about online poker and moving to casino playing live. Because it's not safe to play online anymore.
I'm obviously with those part, who says "it's a big mistake" and "an illegitimate takeoff of our rights and security".
I just can't understand your euphoria about that! I think most (if not all) of you, who applauds for that change just don't see the whole picture...
Yes, when PartyPoker disabled downloadable hand histories, they are automatically disturbed legal hand database and tracker software, like PT4, HM2, Hand2Note etc. But it doesn't mean there will be no individuals anymore who will play with HUD.
There are enough illegal 3rd party software with HUD, that is not allowed to use by any of poker rooms, but some are still will be used by cheaters. But unlike with legal HUDs (which only collecting information from hand histories), such software also gives much more information, that gives really an edge even to a bad play, such as in-built EV calcs and based on calculations advice what line more profitable to take. Such things are never been used by legal software for ethical reasons, this is why basically it still legal on the most poker rooms.
Those black HUDs don't need any hand history and they use either screen-scrappers (a special software that logging action directly from the screen) or black data-mining databases (which been collected by bots-observers by black market merchants in order to sell it to the cheaters, who use such "black HUDs"). And the whole time such cheaters mostly been exposed by the players, who analyze their hands and found out suspicious luck of some players, who just always play right. So they send hands as evidence to poker room support for the further investigations and the cheaters get banned.
Also don't be naive, thinking that bots will be eliminated, when PartyPoker disable downloadable hand histories. In fact, there will be even more of them, as the players can't report any suspicious activity anymore, as the players had taken away the only evidence they had - hand histories. Just imagine for a minute, you were such kind of cheater, who use bots? Wouldn't you love this update and migrate all of your bots to play at PartyPoker instantly?
I remind you once again, that PartyPoker in their own blog reported that, for April 2019, “39 account closures in the month, 38.5% (15) were directly attributed to reports submitted by PartyPoker players.”
I hope you understand, that numbers won't change that fast in this or in the following months. Which means, as players can't help anymore, there is a big lack of security in PartyPoker from now on!
While you may not use a hand history database, the players that do use them are helping to protect every poker player. When a player detects suspicious play or patterns of potential cheating via the analytics in their PokerTracker or Holdem Manager hand history database, they are often detecting cheating rings, chip dumpers, and bots that have cheated 1000’s of players prior to being discovered.
Also, in addition, I want to say, that using HUD is way much overrated. If you are a bad player and download a HUD, you won't automatically become better. If not believing me, you might try a trial version for one month of every legal HUD like PT4 or HM2 or Hand2Note. You will quickly realize, that it helps just a little faster to figure if someone loose or tight for any more additional information, that you may rely on, you actually need thousands of hands, which is very hard to get or almost impossible at MTTs for example.
Also, if you don't know how to read HUD proper it can be very misleading. In fact, many people even start playing worse with HUD, as they too much rely on it. I use HUD myself already some years, but it's just a slightly help for me to figure out a little faster who is a fish and who is a reg, who is tight and who is loose-goose. Ah yeah and it helps to calculate how many big blinds which stack consist too. That's basically the biggest use of my HUD.
But believe me, all these things regulars can do also without HUD, it just takes 10-20 minutes longer to figure. Or a few seconds to convert chips to blinds. And it might be harder to play many tables like 12 at once, as you need more to concentrate on the action. But it's not really kind of problem.
But in the end, with HUD or without, bad players keep loosing and good players keep winning. It's really a made-up story for recreational players to attract them to play on PartyPoker, that if you take away HUD from sharks, they will automatically lose the most of their edge and fish start winning more. That's just ridiculous really. And adult people shouldn't believe fairy tales so easily.
It will be more like, good players migrate to play somewhere else and being replaced by cheaters and bots, who love to be well masked. But in the end, bad players will lose money to them as well. So it's not a good deal for recreational players actually.
At the same time, PartyPoker will be losing a huge amount of their earnings, that regulars been grinding for them daily. They will feel it very soon and it will hurt.
I can't believe they ever attract so much recreationals, who could cover that.
Also, on my own example and I think it's the same with all regulars, who take their game seriously, the prohibition of HUD is not such a big deal, as the fact, that we can't tag, download, copy & past our hands, that we played, in order to analyze them and learn something from it. I'm absolutely sure, that it's essential for any solid player, who want to develop his skills and improve his game or just having the ability to ask poker buddy/ community for a hint how to play on that or another spot. This is the main reason, why I don't want to play on PartyPoker for real money anymore. And I think most of the regs leave this room, just because of that, not because of HUD.
And at the end of this post, I also want to remind you of the story of Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker. One of the biggest cheating scandals in online poker history involved poker site “insiders” cheating their own players. These cheating scandals were only detected because players had the ability to analyze hand histories and then reported their findings publicly.
Well, I don't want to blame PartyPoker for anything yet, as I never heard they been involved in such scandals yet, but you never know. From now on, they can do what they want and guess what? You have no evidence anymore! The hand histories are gone.
Tell me, if you really still happy about that updates after reading my post or there are doubts? If you doubt now, then this post wasn't a waste of my time. Thanks for reading. And sorry that it was a bit long, but I had a lot to say.
p.s. I loved PartyPoker before too, but this update is just a kick in the nuts. And in my opinion it doesn't favor any player, it just taking the rights from the players and letting PartyPoker or Cheaters do what they want without being on risk to be exposed.
p.p.s. I strongly believe we shouldn't appreciate this and better tell them they are wrong.
Because if other poker rooms start to do the same thing, we're in trouble. Then, as a solid player, you really can forget about online poker and moving to casino playing live. Because it's not safe to play online anymore.
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Alucard
Santoryu
Silver Level
Sorry dude but this is just plain old ignorance.
The tracker has helped me develop my game so much & I'm pretty sure without one I wouldn't be playing the way I do right now.
It's not just having statistics but to be able to analyse your own game & analyze hands as well.
Anyway I for one doesn't have much to loose cause party isn't my main site. I play much better games that also doesn't have hud support.
I just enjoyed party tournies & since I can't get hand histories, I can't analyse my game & the mistakes I make so no point in playing there cause I want to improve my game.
terryk
TheCanuckwithalltheluck
Bronze Level
No need to be sorry dude,,,, analyse away! :top: Glad your doing well. Huds are just not for me,,,, and never will be.I prefer to waste my time on other things,,,, :dancing:
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
It probably would be a waste of time for you Terry... I'm not sure if you're good enough that having a HUD to analyze would make much of a difference for you. Probably -ev
terryk
TheCanuckwithalltheluck
Bronze Level
I'm probably not sure either Colin,,,, :girl: maybe.
alienat3d
easy-going alien grinder
Bronze Level
Terry, mate... If it was a comment on my previous long post. I'm sorry that I can't hold myself from writing too many text, when I really have something to say. I hope, that I didn't bore you to death at the beginning of reading and you read it till the end. Because actually that was the main point: It's not only about HUD! (even if PartyPoker tries to present it that way)
The problem of disabling hand histories goes much deeper. And the main problems are: it prevents us from learning from hands we have played and that we have no evidence anymore to expose any cases of cheating.
And those two things are way much more important and significant, than just some HUD.
I can easily play also without HUD, just with my notes. Yes, it will take more time and concentration from me, than with the help of HUD. I also probably need to reduce the amount of tables I play at the same time for that. But it's not a problem at all.
But when I think, that I can't work on my game afterwards, analyzing hands - now that's a reason enough stop playing there for me. This is probably most important thing to do if you want to improve your game.
But of course, PartyPoker doesn't owe us players anything. It's their poker room and we must take it or leave it. Still will be playing freerolls and tickets tho, but probably nothing else. Which is sad, I really liked to play their MTTs, they have nice structure and not so crowded, like on pokerstars. But oh well...
alienat3d
easy-going alien grinder
Bronze Level
5 words... Did you ever use HUD?
"heavily tilted in their favor" - this made me laugh.
I've seen you are playing on ACR. Dude, seriously, download PT4 or HM2 trial version and play ACR with HUD for one month for free, as they both support it. And then we speak again how much game was tilted in your favor.
Believe me, you're really overrating usage of HUDs. It basically only gives a little bit earlier information about who is loose, who is tight, who is passive and who is aggressive. But even that information can be tricky and misleading and also need some hand seize. Under 100 hands, you don't even need to look at HUD. And some stats like 3bet or Steal become interesting only after 1000 hands. And if you're a good player, after 1000 hands you shall have enough self-made notes on a player.
So HUD is always staying a secondary and you have to be skeptic about the information it gives because it is often imperfect.
It's just funny to see, many people who never used HUD themselves, do think it's some kind of wonder cheating software, that makes your game better, right after you installed it. No, it doesn't. In fact, it might even be misleading and bring you to false conclusions, if you blindly rely on it. :deal:
But tracker software and hand history database is ultra useful for learning and makes my game more comfortable overall. By one click I can tag a hand I just played for later analyze. I also can find all the spots I'm losing most chips to work them out and find my leaks.
Or for example, I can make a note on a player inside of that software, so it will be saved forever with a backup and never be gone if any poker room decide to delete all notes suddenly or they be deleted by some accident. There are several advantages indeed, but it never can be called cheating.
But there are also 3rd party black HUDs, that don't even use hand history and use screen scrappers instead, which is illegal and is actual cheating, because they often include also EV calcs and advise how to play, which is really inadmissible and such people should be banned. And now, when fair players have no possibility to investigate themselves over hand histories and to send it to partypoker support, in order to help them be caught. There will come more such guys, who don't want to play fair. And this is dangerous IMHO.
I can't see who will win about that, except cheaters who never want to play fair.
Regulars will find another place to play and recreational players will be still loosing against bots and cheaters, the amount of whom will be growing because of reasons I just told above.
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John A
Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
This simply isn't true, and it's not how the poker ecology works. Like all things, it's a balance.
When new poker sites go up, they seek out multi-table regs. They offer them huge rakeback deals, and in some cases nearly 100% rakeback. Why? Because they need games going in order for recs to do more than deposit, play once and leave. More tables going = more rake = more revenue = more advertising to bring in recs. It's a cycle w/ an important balance.
HUDs aren't the cause of recs not depositing. That's totally nonsense. Recs have been depositing, and HUDs existed during the biggest poker booms we've had. The problem is government regulation / bans, and the access of withdraws and deposits. The games have gotten tougher because less recs want to hassle w/ these things, who would? I'm an online grinder of 15+ years and I barely want to.
If a site wants to offer an environment of no HUD's, that's their prerogative, but it's not a smart approach. If you want to see an intelligent approach, look at Pokerstars model, where they have tons of mass multi-tabling regs keeping the games going, and plenty of new recs depositing because they have mass amounts of cash to spend on branding and advertising. They offer a free simplified HUD to everyone, w/ regulation on the 3rd party tools. Everyone is happy.
The problem with what party poker is doing goes beyond the HUD no HUD debate. Them removing hand histories should not be acceptable to ANY ONLINE POKER PLAYER that cares about the integrity of the games. You want rec players to deposit frequently? Then don't set up a situation for another scandal to occur. That's exactly what's being set in motion at party poker.
No online poker player should be supporting Party Poker anymore. There are plenty of other HUD or no HUD options out there. Poker players need access to hand histories. It's an issue we should stay united on because it's completely unacceptable.