Phil Ivey wins $11 Million - Casino refuses to pay

[OzExorcist]

Ivey has the gamblers disease: no amount of money is satisfying. You have to give him respect for wanting the feeling of always winning and constantly outsmarting the people/casinos that outsmart the average people to make billion dollar enterprises. It does sound as if he did nothing wrong, and just didn't want to be bothered with reporters. He's always like that, short and sweet.. These casinos are overly secure and need to pay when they lose. Same thing goes with online poker companies, they make enough money off the rake and entry fees to cheat their players of payouts and card viewing (absolute scandal). I love articles like these though. So entertaining..

is he cheating? why dont they give money that he deserve....

They just can`t handle that he is a high stakes gambler that caught a heater and now they are ruining their rep. I guess the recession in the UK is affecting the casinos too.

First off welcome to Cardschat, looks like you're all new here.

You might want to read a bit more of the thread though. Whether Ivey was "cheating" or not really depends on your definition of the word cheating, but it's all but confirmed that he and his companion were edge sorting during their game.

That's a form of advantage play, which casinos frown upon in the same way that they frown upon card counting in blackjack. And by "frown upon", I mean "something they'll kick you out for, possibly without your winnings".

So I'll ask the question: forget, for a moment, that Ivey was playing a game that most people don't seem to understand, and using an advantage play method that most people don't understand. And forget that this case has all kinds of weird about it on both Ivey's side and the casino's side. If, instead, Ivey was found card counting in a blackjack game, would your 'Ivey is awesome, pay the man his money' reaction still be the same?!?

 

[engpaulino]

WOW if Ivey enters the world of the bad guys in poker, (FT aside) then dang who can we believe²

 

[Ranny]

Latest article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-controversial-edge-sorting-technique.html

 

[KATALUNECA]

For me Phil Ivey is a man with a very good heart and sense of humor. For me he is the best poker player.

 

[OzExorcist]

Latest article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-controversial-edge-sorting-technique.html

Good read - basically confirms everything that's been hinted at or hypothesised over the past few months. He was definitely edge sorting, and there's no way the casino wouldn't have recognised it.

Will be very interested to see how the courts rule on it...

WOW if Ivey enters the world of the bad guys in poker, (FT aside) then dang who can we believe²

Again, whether or not Ivey is a "good guy" depends very much on how you define the term "good guy". But in the link just above he admits that he's always been an advantage player when it comes to table games and he's generally known as a big hit-run player in those games too.

Whether doing those things makes you a "bad guy" is, obviously, open to interpretation. I don't believe it has a huge bearing either way on how he is in the poker world, though it does very clearly reinforce that Ivey is first and foremost interested in his own well being. Can't fault him for that.

 

[Bowman26]

Casinos suck. They are like insurance they love to take your money and offer lots of ways to extract it from you. But the day you want your payout they are nowhere to be found. See they are only in business to collect $$ not pay it out.

 

[capecoralhobo]

First off welcome to Cardschat, looks like you're all new here.

You might want to read a bit more of the thread though. Whether Ivey was "cheating" or not really depends on your definition of the word cheating, but it's all but confirmed that he and his companion were edge sorting during their game.

That's a form of advantage play, which casinos frown upon in the same way that they frown upon card counting in blackjack. And by "frown upon", I mean "something they'll kick you out for, possibly without your winnings".

So I'll ask the question: forget, for a moment, that Ivey was playing a game that most people don't seem to understand, and using an advantage play method that most people don't understand. And forget that this case has all kinds of weird about it on both Ivey's side and the casino's side. If, instead, Ivey was found card counting in a blackjack game, would your 'Ivey is awesome, pay the man his money' reaction still be the same?!?

Punto Banco house odds are 1.17-1.36% [compared to ~1% for blackjack] http://www.thegoodgamblingguide.co.uk/casino/casinohouseedge.htm

Does edge counting shift the edge to the player? I know that card counting with a single deck fully dealt can shift the advantage, which is a reason for multi-deck shoes dealt 75%.

In my opinion, edge counting is different [more offensive] than counting because the information to count is public. It would be like a rule [or software] that discouraged card awareness in games like Stud hi/lo.

 

[OzExorcist]

*shrugs*

The information to edge sort is public too, given that anyone in the game can see the front card in the shoe. Kind of a moot point though because this was a private salon and Ivey was the only player.

I'm by no means an expert on edge sorting but the consensus is that yes, if done properly it can make the game +EV for the player.

As for the house edges, as I said earlier it's something that can vary from casino to casino. Bets on the banker in punto banco typically carry a house edge of ~1%, whereas not all players are capable of playing perfect blackjack and not all casinos offer blackjack games with the favourable conditions described in your link (some only pay 6:5 on blackjacks instead of 3:2, for example).

Remember also that the whale isn't necessarily a rational creature. Some of them probably don't mind giving up a higher house edge to play baccarat over poker because the get to squeeze the cards in baccarat, for example

 

[Akorps]

Reminds me of the movie "Kaleidoscope", starring Warren Beatty, where he won by doing something similar

 

[only_bridge]

Im thinking inside job.
The dealer or someone else working at the casino prolly let the readable decks of cards in.

Ivey in Deep this time. Wonder how he's gonna bluff himself out of this sitch.

 

[JaxA]

I'm interested in how the courts will rule.

 

[batu2]

Opinion: Did traps Phil Ivey?

Despite being universally considered the best player in the world and a key figure in the scandal at Full Tilt's Phil Ivey may have achieved worldwide fame for a story unrelated to poker.

It is alleged cheating he did in the casino Crockfords in London playing Punto Banco. Ivey won £ 7.5 million were confiscated and now the casino has denounced in court to get paid .

Most likely you will reach an agreement out of court . Money aside, if this ends up being a long and cumbersome legal process , both sides have much to lose as bad publicity for their operations.

But to us what we want is ... Did you make traps or not?


The argument used is that the letters had small design flaws that allowed to know what the letter was the reverse pattern . Ivey allegedly took a partner expert in design view these errors , giving him quite an advantage .

Ivey and his partner asked them to change the deck , until one with the errors appeared on the back , it was with the play calling .

The casino Ivey argues that " act to defeat the essential premise of the game" , but Phil himself said it was a mistake from the casino and he is a player with an advantage but the game continued .

This technique is similar to Blackjack card counting , something you might take for a casino, but it is not technically a form of cheating . Although Ivey influenced the decks with which it was played , ever influenced the way of distribute . Simply was fixed and made ​​decisions based on what he saw.

The casino was within his rights to change his deck at any time, but Phil wanted to continue playing.
The big question is : how a casino , who is prepared to host games of high stakes as enormous as this , commits a rookie mistake as using barajas with errors in the design of their bakcklashes?

One can say that is by sheer incompetence , but if I were a cynic , would suppose that is because were fully aware these Errors in the design and wanted use them in your favor.

So yes did traps ? I believe that neither from afar.
*
Ivey did not influence the result of the cards in absolute and had the same information the casino. No say that has not been something calculated or even a little shady by part of Phil , but the blame is the casino by afford a vulnerability well .

In my opinion Ivey acted following the rules of game and the Crockfords had time to spare for influence action that was taking place to prevent to Phil win their £ 7.5 million. Is a bitter pill (and one incompetence ) by your part, but should ...

 

[Jair83]

And in order that this case will end up staying to Pay Money or not you are Paying for Fraud?

 

[lulu pk]

Good to see that the casinos can loose sometime...

 

[Kibic1302]

Stupidity casino, which is used Ivey. Pay him!

 

[alexb87]

Man that is crazy I would be pissed!!

 

[engpaulino]

Phil is the master

 

[SANDYHOOKER KY]

I cannot, and will not EVER accept the notion that counting cards in black jack is cheating. Jesus H. Christ man, are you a dummy, that just sits there with your head up your bum? You absolutely have to be joking. Those cards are public domain, friend, and if you have a brain, and can remember your name, you can count all the cards you want. Who is the official agency that says it's cheating, because one is above the average joe and can remember a lot of cards? Oh yea, the casinos? The people that work for the casino's? Hahaha, that's why you can't get ARRESTED for it, only asked to leave the casino because you can beat them, and that's the casino's pitiful ploy to get you out of there. They don't like anyone with brains in their casino that can whip their azzes. Isn't black jack a card game? Last time i looked they used cards, them ones like they use in that card game called texas holdem. And seven card stud. Now, i'll have to accuse the next player i see of counting cards, after said player has wired jacks, and two jacks fall around the board thus eliminating his chance of getting three of them to beat the three 10s he's looking at. And if that's NOT counting cards, what the hell is it???

 

[PokerGrinder]

Pay Ivey.

The Casino should be shut down.

 

[Bowman]

Despite being universally considered the best player in the world and a key figure in the scandal at Full Tilt's Phil Ivey may have achieved worldwide fame for a story unrelated to poker.

It is alleged cheating he did in the casino Crockfords in London playing Punto Banco. Ivey won £ 7.5 million were confiscated and now the casino has denounced in court to get paid .

Most likely you will reach an agreement out of court . Money aside, if this ends up being a long and cumbersome legal process , both sides have much to lose as bad publicity for their operations.

But to us what we want is ... Did you make traps or not?


The argument used is that the letters had small design flaws that allowed to know what the letter was the reverse pattern . Ivey allegedly took a partner expert in design view these errors , giving him quite an advantage .

Ivey and his partner asked them to change the deck , until one with the errors appeared on the back , it was with the play calling .

The casino Ivey argues that " act to defeat the essential premise of the game" , but Phil himself said it was a mistake from the casino and he is a player with an advantage but the game continued .

This technique is similar to Blackjack card counting , something you might take for a casino, but it is not technically a form of cheating . Although Ivey influenced the decks with which it was played , ever influenced the way of distribute . Simply was fixed and made ​​decisions based on what he saw.

The casino was within his rights to change his deck at any time, but Phil wanted to continue playing.
The big question is : how a casino , who is prepared to host games of high stakes as enormous as this , commits a rookie mistake as using barajas with errors in the design of their bakcklashes?

One can say that is by sheer incompetence , but if I were a cynic , would suppose that is because were fully aware these Errors in the design and wanted use them in your favor.

So yes did traps ? I believe that neither from afar.
*
Ivey did not influence the result of the cards in absolute and had the same information the casino. No say that has not been something calculated or even a little shady by part of Phil , but the blame is the casino by afford a vulnerability well .

In my opinion Ivey acted following the rules of game and the Crockfords had time to spare for influence action that was taking place to prevent to Phil win their £ 7.5 million. Is a bitter pill (and one incompetence ) by your part, but should ...

hard is for me to follow. lol
The casino Ivey argues that .... also whats this mean?

 

[OzExorcist]

I cannot, and will not EVER accept the notion that counting cards in black jack is cheating. Jesus H. Christ man, are you a dummy, that just sits there with your head up your bum? You absolutely have to be joking. Those cards are public domain, friend, and if you have a brain, and can remember your name, you can count all the cards you want. Who is the official agency that says it's cheating, because one is above the average joe and can remember a lot of cards? Oh yea, the casinos? The people that work for the casino's? Hahaha, that's why you can't get ARRESTED for it, only asked to leave the casino because you can beat them, and that's the casino's pitiful ploy to get you out of there. They don't like anyone with brains in their casino that can whip their azzes. Isn't black jack a card game? Last time i looked they used cards, them ones like they use in that card game called texas holdem. And seven card stud. Now, i'll have to accuse the next player i see of counting cards, after said player has wired jacks, and two jacks fall around the board thus eliminating his chance of getting three of them to beat the three 10s he's looking at. And if that's NOT counting cards, what the hell is it???

While I get where you're coming from, think of it like this:

As a poker player it's up to you to pick and choose who you play against. Ideally you want to play against fish and not sharks. If Phil Ivey himself sat down at your table, fixed you with that stare of his and said "HU4rollz?" you'd be insane to accept and play with him because you KNOW he's a much better player than you.

It's your right as a poker player to choose not to play against better players.

Same goes for casinos and blackjack. They're choosing to be selective about who they play against, and they'd be insane to give unlimited action to the "better" players they know can beat them.

 

[TrueOC]

How can you cheat?

Ididnt read the entire full postbutyeamad weird

 

[OzExorcist]

How can you cheat?

Ididnt read the entire full postbutyeamad weird

*facepalm*

Read the whole thread and you'll find out how - it appears Ivey and his companion used a technique known as edge sorting.

 

[Chemist]

. . .
If Phil Ivey himself sat down at your table, fixed you with that stare of his and said "HU4rollz?" you'd be insane to accept and play with him because you KNOW he's a much better player than you.
. . .

You'd be insane not to accept.
fairly sure it would be +ev
Because his roll is much bigger than mine.

 

[OzExorcist]

You'd be insane not to accept.
fairly sure it would be +ev
Because his roll is much bigger than mine.

LOL - obviously assuming we'd be playing table stakes for the size of our roll... though if our roll were relatively small and he was willing to reload infinite times until somebody was busto it MIGHT be something to think about