partypoker defends banning HUD's

xOneCoolHandx

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The main way to grow and develop as a player is to review your game away from the table. Which for online players is done by collecting your hand histories with a tracker such as PT4 or HM2 and look for potential leaks or misplayed hands.

This is no longer possible at PartyPoker, since they have gotten rid of hand histories, which also mean, that people can not as easily share hands in a forum like this and get feedback from other players.

The result is, that players at PartyPoker will stagnate and not develop compared to players at other sites. Which is also the stated intention of PartyPoker. They dont want players to be to good, because that discourage new players, or at least so is the ideology behind these moves.


This is NOT the main way nor even close to the only way. Don't forget that poker has been around in one form or the other since ancient times. Long before the internet and HUDs. Professionals have learned the game and honed during that time through other methods. I personally hone my game through reading books, reading online strategy blogs and forums and documenting my own hands that I think I played either really well or really bad. The point is that (hard as it is to believe) the internet has not been around forever, while it is a great tool, it is not the only tool.
 
venycyos

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I think without hud is more like live, as a strategic decision time will tell whether it was good or not. As no use for me does not matter.
 
ironduke11

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anyone saying huds aren't a cheat sheet is delusional....the more predicatable a player is because I know their style of play the more of an advantage it si for me wheither that familiarity is generated by frequent games or by a program bringing me their stats...

Ban all huds!
 
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fundiver199

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anyone saying huds aren't a cheat sheet is delusional....the more predicatable a player is because I know their style of play the more of an advantage it si for me wheither that familiarity is generated by frequent games or by a program bringing me their stats...


Ban all huds!

What exactly is the difference? The tracker - like your brain - only collect data from the hands, you have played with someone. So with your line of thinking it would also be cheating, if someone used pen and paper to write down information rather than trying to remember everything in his head.
 
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fundiver199

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This is NOT the main way nor even close to the only way. Don't forget that poker has been around in one form or the other since ancient times. Long before the internet and HUDs. Professionals have learned the game and honed during that time through other methods.


People from the pre-internet era are being absolutely crushed in todays games, if they have not embraced all the new knowledge, which has emerged from online poker and the software developed around it.
 
mk0523

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Huds are miss-leading, I seldom use mine these days.


I haven't used one in a while since Im not as dedicated to poker as I used to be but they are very valuable if used correctly and for multi tabling.
 
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Das4ever

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I think hud should be banned it seems like cheating against other who do not use this
 
xOneCoolHandx

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People from the pre-internet era are being absolutely crushed in todays games, if they have not embraced all the new knowledge, which has emerged from online poker and the software developed around it.


I disagree. I am from the pre-internet era. I still study and hone my game and I do not get absolutely crushed. The game is about learning and developing. HUDs do not do that. They give you statistics to base your decisions off of. There is no substitute for observing your opponents style and making good reads on them. I am not sure what new knowledge you could be referring outside of stats that the HUD would give you. That's not true knowledge. I will concede there are newer game theories and mathematical analysis out there, but you cannot learn these by using a HUD. You have to learn by studying and implementing strategies into your game.

The main thing that HUDs take away is studying your opponents and learning to make good reads. This is important both online and live. The HUD can tell me that with a certain hand I have an estimated percentage of winning against a given range for an opponent. But, it cannot teach me how to outplay that opponent. This is something that is missing in "modern" players, especially if they want to come offline and play live.
 
thwenth1983

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Forbidden or not Huds?

HUD are software that collect data from your opponents and present this data on the screen for you to have information on such, statistical data that aid in decision making.
Usually HUDs are coupled into software that manages this data and create even more powerful coefficients accumulated on your machine, as well as managing your own data, serving not only your opponents as well as your own.
I like to use huds, I do not understand all the statics they pick.
It is imprecating to see professional players explaining why he is making a play according to the information he has of the opponent, I recommend to people who like the game cash Brazilian player, who uses the nickname PeixeFeliz, he explains why he is making the move using hud, youtube Claudio Davino.
 
Vilgeoforc

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The lack of HUD somewhat equalized the level of players, but how to analyze your game without a hand history?
 
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fundiver199

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The main thing that HUDs take away is studying your opponents and learning to make good reads. This is important both online and live.

I dont see, how a HUD "takes away" anything at all. Its not like, you have suddenly become blind, just because you have a HUD running. You can also still make notes, if someone took an unusual line, and the hand went to showdown. This can sometimes be usefull especially for picking up on bet sizing tells, because a HUD typically only display data about frequency and not sizes.

The HUD can tell me that with a certain hand I have an estimated percentage of winning against a given range for an opponent. But, it cannot teach me how to outplay that opponent.

With this comment it is clear, that you dont even understand, what information a HUD display, or how it is used. No poker sites allow the use of software, which display your estimated equity against anything other than a random hand during play.

So while a tracker could surely be programmed to display estimated equity and even suggested actions, this is not allowed, and for good reasons. It would fall under the definition of a "bot", even if a human still did the final button pressing.

What a HUD display is simply, what your opponent have done in the previous hands, you played with him. Nothing more and nothing less. It show, how often he entered a pot preflop, how often he raised, how often he 3-bet, how often he folded to a 3-bet, and so on and so forth. It is completely up to you to figure out, if this information give you ways to outplay your opponent.

Let me just give a simple example. Today I called a CO open on BTN with QTs. I flopped a gutshot with two overs on a 984. My opponent put out a healthy C-bet, so now it was decision time. You can basically fold, call or raise here, so a lot depend on, how strong you think, your opponent is, when he C-bet on that kind of board.

My HUD showed, that this player had been C-betting the flop 12 times out of 13 opportunities. So basically every single time, he had the chance. Sure 13 is not the largest sample in the world, but it is still fairly unlikely, that someone will find 12 good C-betting spots out of 13. A number of 6-8 would be more normal.

A lot of a typical CO open range has missed 984 completely, and if he was C-betting basically his entire range, he would have a lot of A high, K high etc., that could not stand a raise but was still ahead of me. So I raised, and sure enough he folded, and I took it down.

So this is how, HUD-data are used during play. I play around 30.000 hands per month online, so there is no way, I would be able to manually remember, how often all my opponents are C-betting the flop. Therefore it is usefull for me to let a tracker collect this information for me and display it on a HUD during play.

Does this give me an advantage over people not using a HUD? Sure. And therefore I will also advice everyone, who is serious about online poker, to either use one, or at a minimum play on a site, where they are not allowed, so you dont put yourself at a disadvantage to other players.
 
Zorba

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Or imagine, that you had instruments in your car telling your speed, the engine revs, the engine temperature, how much fuel is left, or when your car need a service. It would completely ruin the fun of driving. (End of sarcasm).
Imagine the wsop with an extra chair and small table for each seat for the note taking secretary and their computer.

There are no HUDs in live poker, so why should HUDs be allowed in online poker.

:bandit:
 
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fundiver199

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There are no HUDs in live poker, so why should HUDs be allowed in online poker.

Because its not live poker. You might as well say, that there are no instruments on your bicycle, so why should there be instruments in an aeroplane. Now I dont mind online poker without HUDs, but I seriously dont understand, why so many people keep hating on them.
 
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fundiver199

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Imagine the WSOP with an extra chair and small table for each seat for the note taking secretary and their computer.

Well that would indeed look rather silly. But do you really think, there are any people running deep in the WSOP, who dont spend part of their breaks, evenings etc. talking to their coach and going through hands, that were shown on TV? So the reality is probably not all that far away from, what you describe here. The only difference is, that the coach is not seated at the table.
 
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They can't stop it. Just like botting.
 
terryk

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When you start a tourney,have an idea what the numbers would look like,,,,and adjust your play accordingly. :rolleyes: And mix-up your bet sizing with a little sporadic play,,,
 
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fundiver199

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They can't stop it. Just like botting.


This is also a very good point. Maybe if you are playing 10NL cash games or 3$ tournaments, this is not a big worry, because these limits are soft anyway, so there is no huge incentive to cheat in order to gain a small edge and win pennies.

But you if are playing for real money like 100+NL cash games or 22+$ tournaments, then I would feel extremely unsafe at partypoker now. Its not a question IF, but only HOW and WHEN some people will find ways to use illegal HUDs, and good luck to the safety staff trying to stop this in a world full of very talented IT-people and hackers.
 
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I think other poker rooms should follow the footsteps of PartyPoker, I think it would be fair for novice players like me.
 
Gohaku94

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I think other poker rooms should follow the footsteps of PartyPoker, I think it would be fair for novice players like me.
That makes no sense at all.. being new to something does not mean that others should change the rulles or make new rulles to acomodate bad people.. just improve your game
 
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fundiver199

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That makes no sense at all.. being new to something does not mean that others should change the rulles or make new rulles to acomodate bad people.. just improve your game

That comment is a little bit arrogant. If you dont want to use a HUD for whatever reason, it totally make sense, that you would rather, that nobody else can use one either. However many HUD free tables already exist, so people can just go to those. On 888 poker for instance the SNAP tables are HUD free.

The real problem with PartyPoker is not, that they have gotten rid of HUDs. The problem is, that they have gotten rid of hand histories. This takes away the possibility for players to review their hands later to learn and improve, and it makes cheating easier, so it put the safety of all players at risk.

And this is the reason, why you will not be finding me at PartyPoker anytime soon. Its not their ban on HUDs, nor their random seating or anything else.
 
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partypoker

Hello I reckon its unfair of partypoker to ban HUD's I see the HUD software as a valuable tool to utilise all available information and make correct decisions.
 
Poker Orifice

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Its not a question IF, but only HOW and WHEN some people will find ways to use illegal HUDs, and good luck to the safety staff trying to stop this in a world full of very talented IT-people and hackers.


And watching that interview they posted with R. Yong talking about the new Partypoker without HUDs wasn't very re-assurinig at all :( Seemed a bit ridiculous tbh.

One thing I have noticed on Partypoker since they've removed HH's & HUDs. The numbers are wayyyy down on the Cash tables (like about 1/3 of what there was prior) and the general style of play is definitely not softer at all. (it actually reminds me of when there were lots of BOTs playing on there 6 mos. ago (FastForward tables had quite a few of them... I know this as this is what I had played many hands at & I'd received refunds from PP. (and some other reasons as well)).
I've actually moved almost all of my play over to pokerstars :( ... & I had thought I would be continuing to play on PP. Change in plans!
 
MikeShayne

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Yeah they can. Poker sites have access to what you are using on your desktop when you are playing on their site. What they could do is offer their own HUD that players can determine whether they want to use or not.


This is true. I have received "warning" emails from STARS before for just having software open (not using) while playing a session. Actually, a little scary the amount of info the sites can ascertain about your PC while playing.
 
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prizzy711

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Yeah they can. Poker sites have access to what you are using on your desktop when you are playing on their site. What they could do is offer their own HUD that players can determine whether they want to use or not.


Damn. That sucks
 
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