Partypoker has defended its recent software update following pressure from some sectors of the community.

Partypoker Defends Decision to Protect Newbies from Evil HUDs

As a poker newbie, I don't have an issue with HUDs. In fact, I was hoping to one day learn how to use them as I got more involved with the game.

I enjoy playing hudless games so it's fine by me but will it make posting hh's to forums more difficult ?. Or will they still have a copy paste format for hh's for posting and reviewing on forums even if it's without player names just player a b c etc...

This makes multi tabling for professionals, well all players in general, much more difficult no?
Also no hand history reviews?
Makes no sense.

I think they are being ridiculous. New players are being eaten alive because they are fish. The only way HUDS might be negatively affecting new players in my opinion would be cash games and sit n gos by allowing more good players to play more tables. I think there is another reason that they don't want to advertise. This just doesn't make sense to me. I will continue to keep most of my poker money on sites that allow HUDS. If they don't want my business, good riddens.

I See no problems with HUD's.The decision to call or go all in is always by the humans.HUD helps with the statistics.

Once again people have not been complaining about PartyPoker no longer allowing the use of HUDs. One can be for or against the use of HUDs. I like HUDs, but I can not use a HUD, neither can my opponents (unless they cheate), so I dont have any big principle problem with HUDs not being allowed.

The complaints are about PartyPoker no longer allowing players to download their hand histories. Hand histories are important to allow players to analyse their game away from the table. And they are also important for the integrity of the games, because they allow players to detect and expose patterns, that indicate cheating.


Its amazing how PartyPoker can get away with putting out this smoke screen and not even attempting to answer the serious issues, which has been raised by many players.

I think this is the right decision. Personally, I have never used ancillary software for the game.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Once again people have not been complaining about PartyPoker no longer allowing the use of HUDs. One can be for or against the use of HUDs. I like HUDs, but I can not use a HUD, neither can my opponents (unless they cheate), so I dont have any big principle problem with HUDs not being allowed.

The complaints are about PartyPoker no longer allowing players to download their hand histories. Hand histories are important to allow players to analyse their game away from the table. And they are also important for the integrity of the games, because they allow players to detect and expose patterns, that indicate cheating.


Its amazing how PartyPoker can get away with putting out this smoke screen and not even attempting to answer the serious issues, which has been raised by many players.

I have PT4 and loved the experience of using it, both on the tables and using it for analysis off. I've been having a break for a few months after self excluding on Pokerstars. I decided to try something a bit different and ended up on Party Poker coming back, and this has coincided with the big changes they've made. For now I'm comfortable playing without a HUD when I know my opponents don't have one either. I'm really interested in how this might affect the play at the tables and whether I will notice a difference in the play, and in the strength of opponents.

I'm interested to see whether Party Poker do address the concerns some people have. A statement of just how they intend to catch and expose cheating now that players are powerless to notice would be very insightful. I play for peanuts and am not hugely worried, but I can appreciate why some other people are concerned.

The one change I'd definitely like to see is being able to make notes against players when reviewing the hands I've played. Making notes playing Fast Forward is a bloody nightmare. What I've discovered is that if I review the hands while still at the table (but sitting out), I can see villain names and at least make some handwritten notes - I've started sitting out at the end of my session and reviewing a few hands before I close the table. Unfortunately at this stage I cannot add any notes against the players on the software. It is a bit of a pain that if I close the table and use the hand history in the main client I can no longer see villain names - this makes the hand history rather useless in regards to anything outside of reviewing my own play. I totally get the HUDless argument and think it is a good thing we have options out there for players who want to play with a HUD and those who do not, but feel that there is a big difference between a HUD making things very easy to target the fish and get reads on regs, compared to a player who is dedicated enough to make their own notes and spend time reviewing hands to look for tells & player tendencies and manually do all the legwork to get the upper hand. So I do strongly feel that the ability to take notes should be improved, by adding that facility to the hand reviewer.

Apparently party poker has a new HUD that you can use now. It cost $30. I dont know much about it because I heard it through the grapevine

Originally Posted by Riversalmon

Apparently party poker has a new HUD that you can use now. It cost $30. I dont know much about it because I heard it through the grapevine

Can you tell us where you found this info? I was doing a quick search and cannot find anything right now.

I think the ban is great. HUDs were never meant to be a part of poker. I've tried using them (for a long time) and just hated it - I wasn't playing poker anymore, I was just looking at some numbers and making decisions - I might as well have been working risk analysis in a bank. I agree with banning them site-wide though: I don't mind if a website wants to allow them, in which case everybody will use them, but a website without them is great because I don't have to be worrying about being at a disadvantage just because I actually enjoy playing poker.

Imagine in golf if you could just put on an eyepiece and it would show you all the statistics and forces and angles involved in your shot or the same in pool/snooker - it would ruin the game because now everybody can just instantly make optimal decisions as long as they know how to interpret the data.

I'll be switching to PartyPoker as soon as I have enough time to start playing again!

Originally Posted by Shells

Partypoker has defended its recent software update following pressure from some sectors of the community.
Partypoker Defends Decision to Protect Newbies from Evil HUDs

hi hi
i very upset with this change of policy
i am serious learn poker, to get better no lose all the time... i need study the hands i have played, look for leaks, examine action etc, etc
i wish study how i have played a premium pair UTG etc etc, i need all those statistics
i like my coach look at my database of hands last week and give me pointers from what he see

so it not just about HUDS, which are useless without THOUSANDS of hands data on an opponent

Huds are miss-leading, I seldom use mine these days.

I have no problem with that. I love my feel for the game and I do not need any help. So I learned in the live game.

Originally Posted by Shells

Can you tell us where you found this info? I was doing a quick search and cannot find anything right now.

I believe it was called party caption. You can buy it for $30 for a 30 year licence

Originally Posted by Riversalmon

I believe it was called party caption. You can buy it for $30 for a 30 year licence

Thanks for answering.

Originally Posted by Riversalmon

I believe it was called party caption. You can buy it for $30 for a 30 year licence

After taking a look at the info page, it appears this is not something PartyPoker is selling. It is a private party.

Edit - upon looking at the information page a little closer, aside from no affiliation with partypoker, the highlighted link near the bottom of the bulleted points lead you to a 2+2 comment made in 2016.

Originally Posted by Millie232

Imagine in golf if you could just put on an eyepiece and it would show you all the statistics and forces and angles involved in your shot or the same in pool/snooker - it would ruin the game because now everybody can just instantly make optimal decisions as long as they know how to interpret the data.

Or imagine, that you had instruments in your car telling your speed, the engine revs, the engine temperature, how much fuel is left, or when your car need a service. It would completely ruin the fun of driving. (End of sarcasm).

I do not think they're going to reach PS with that mentality.

Disagree 100%. Especially with their additional decision to get rid of hand histories. How will they even enforce this?

I've never used a HUD but not because I'm against them, just haven't been able to arrange a replacement computer and buy the software yet.

I'm not overly bothered that I'm playing against people with HUD's, it adds extra sweetness to winning and the better my opponents are, the more I improve.

This being said, I think I will register at partypoker now and see what it's like.

My main question; isn't partypoker owned by stars? Surely it's weird having different rules at sites owned by the same company?

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Or imagine, that you had instruments in your car telling your speed, the engine revs, the engine temperature, how much fuel is left, or when your car need a service. It would completely ruin the fun of driving. (End of sarcasm).

A) The two aren't really comparable.

B) Older, more mechanical cars with less software are waaaaay more fun to drive than the PC's-on-wheels rolling off production lines these days*.


*With the possible exception of Tesla's..

I've tried using a HUD and didn't really care for them. At the time, I didn't care about other people using them. But, upon reflection, my thoughts have changed. Online poker is supposed to be a substitute for live poker. Your skill and ability is based upon YOU and your ability to play, observe your opponents, identify situations and evaluate game play. You would not be allowed to use any type of electronic device in a live poker room. So, I support the ban of HUDs. I think the people claiming that pros need them to play a whole bunch of tables at once is a load. There are plenty of other options such as sitting in higher stakes games. Once again, they would not be allowed to multi-table in live venues. Yet, they can still do that to the best of their OWN abilities online. I also agree with the opinion (maybe posted in this thread, but if not, in others I have read related to HUDs) that HUDs can retard a players growth and development as a player. They learn to use the software instead of learning to read their opponents, especially people who are multi-tabling.

I am not against players being allowed access to their hand histories and having software that evaluates their play. This aids growth and development and is not really different from other study options available.

Originally Posted by xOneCoolHandx

I also agree with the opinion (maybe posted in this thread, but if not, in others I have read related to HUDs) that HUDs can retard a players growth and development as a player.

The main way to grow and develop as a player is to review your game away from the table. Which for online players is done by collecting your hand histories with a tracker such as PT4 or HM2 and look for potential leaks or misplayed hands.

This is no longer possible at PartyPoker, since they have gotten rid of hand histories, which also mean, that people can not as easily share hands in a forum like this and get feedback from other players.

The result is, that players at PartyPoker will stagnate and not develop compared to players at other sites. Which is also the stated intention of PartyPoker. They dont want players to be to good, because that discourage new players, or at least so is the ideology behind these moves.

Originally Posted by Tracid

My main question; isn't partypoker owned by stars?

No the two sites have different owners.

Originally Posted by Tracid

A) The two aren't really comparable.

To me they are comparable. When you drive a car, it would also be possible to manually gauge your speed by looking out the window and the engine revs by listening to your engine, but why would you want to?

Originally Posted by Tracid

B) Older, more mechanical cars with less software are waaaaay more fun to drive than the PC's-on-wheels rolling off production lines these days*.

This is true, but even old cars have basic instruments like a speedometer and in some models a rev counter to assist the driver.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

The main way to grow and develop as a player is to review your game away from the table. Which for online players is done by collecting your hand histories with a tracker such as PT4 or HM2 and look for potential leaks or misplayed hands.

This is no longer possible at PartyPoker, since they have gotten rid of hand histories, which also mean, that people can not as easily share hands in a forum like this and get feedback from other players.

The result is, that players at PartyPoker will stagnate and not develop compared to players at other sites. Which is also the stated intention of PartyPoker. They dont want players to be to good, because that discourage new players, or at least so is the ideology behind these moves.

This is NOT the main way nor even close to the only way. Don't forget that poker has been around in one form or the other since ancient times. Long before the internet and HUDs. Professionals have learned the game and honed during that time through other methods. I personally hone my game through reading books, reading online strategy blogs and forums and documenting my own hands that I think I played either really well or really bad. The point is that (hard as it is to believe) the internet has not been around forever, while it is a great tool, it is not the only tool.

I think without hud is more like live, as a strategic decision time will tell whether it was good or not. As no use for me does not matter.

anyone saying huds aren't a cheat sheet is delusional....the more predicatable a player is because I know their style of play the more of an advantage it si for me wheither that familiarity is generated by frequent games or by a program bringing me their stats...

Ban all huds!

Originally Posted by ironduke11

anyone saying huds aren't a cheat sheet is delusional....the more predicatable a player is because I know their style of play the more of an advantage it si for me wheither that familiarity is generated by frequent games or by a program bringing me their stats...


Ban all huds!

What exactly is the difference? The tracker - like your brain - only collect data from the hands, you have played with someone. So with your line of thinking it would also be cheating, if someone used pen and paper to write down information rather than trying to remember everything in his head.

Originally Posted by xOneCoolHandx

This is NOT the main way nor even close to the only way. Don't forget that poker has been around in one form or the other since ancient times. Long before the internet and HUDs. Professionals have learned the game and honed during that time through other methods.

People from the pre-internet era are being absolutely crushed in todays games, if they have not embraced all the new knowledge, which has emerged from online poker and the software developed around it.

Originally Posted by okeedokalee

Huds are miss-leading, I seldom use mine these days.

I haven't used one in a while since Im not as dedicated to poker as I used to be but they are very valuable if used correctly and for multi tabling.

I think hud should be banned it seems like cheating against other who do not use this

Originally Posted by fundiver199

People from the pre-internet era are being absolutely crushed in todays games, if they have not embraced all the new knowledge, which has emerged from online poker and the software developed around it.

I disagree. I am from the pre-internet era. I still study and hone my game and I do not get absolutely crushed. The game is about learning and developing. HUDs do not do that. They give you statistics to base your decisions off of. There is no substitute for observing your opponents style and making good reads on them. I am not sure what new knowledge you could be referring outside of stats that the HUD would give you. That's not true knowledge. I will concede there are newer game theories and mathematical analysis out there, but you cannot learn these by using a HUD. You have to learn by studying and implementing strategies into your game.

The main thing that HUDs take away is studying your opponents and learning to make good reads. This is important both online and live. The HUD can tell me that with a certain hand I have an estimated percentage of winning against a given range for an opponent. But, it cannot teach me how to outplay that opponent. This is something that is missing in "modern" players, especially if they want to come offline and play live.

HUD are software that collect data from your opponents and present this data on the screen for you to have information on such, statistical data that aid in decision making.
Usually HUDs are coupled into software that manages this data and create even more powerful coefficients accumulated on your machine, as well as managing your own data, serving not only your opponents as well as your own.
I like to use huds, I do not understand all the statics they pick.
It is imprecating to see professional players explaining why he is making a play according to the information he has of the opponent, I recommend to people who like the game cash Brazilian player, who uses the nickname PeixeFeliz, he explains why he is making the move using hud, youtube Claudio Davino.

The lack of HUD somewhat equalized the level of players, but how to analyze your game without a hand history?

Originally Posted by xOneCoolHandx

The main thing that HUDs take away is studying your opponents and learning to make good reads. This is important both online and live.

I dont see, how a HUD "takes away" anything at all. Its not like, you have suddenly become blind, just because you have a HUD running. You can also still make notes, if someone took an unusual line, and the hand went to showdown. This can sometimes be usefull especially for picking up on bet sizing tells, because a HUD typically only display data about frequency and not sizes.

Originally Posted by xOneCoolHandx

The HUD can tell me that with a certain hand I have an estimated percentage of winning against a given range for an opponent. But, it cannot teach me how to outplay that opponent.

With this comment it is clear, that you dont even understand, what information a HUD display, or how it is used. No poker sites allow the use of software, which display your estimated equity against anything other than a random hand during play.

So while a tracker could surely be programmed to display estimated equity and even suggested actions, this is not allowed, and for good reasons. It would fall under the definition of a "bot", even if a human still did the final button pressing.

What a HUD display is simply, what your opponent have done in the previous hands, you played with him. Nothing more and nothing less. It show, how often he entered a pot preflop, how often he raised, how often he 3-bet, how often he folded to a 3-bet, and so on and so forth. It is completely up to you to figure out, if this information give you ways to outplay your opponent.

Let me just give a simple example. Today I called a CO open on BTN with QTs. I flopped a gutshot with two overs on a 984. My opponent put out a healthy C-bet, so now it was decision time. You can basically fold, call or raise here, so a lot depend on, how strong you think, your opponent is, when he C-bet on that kind of board.

My HUD showed, that this player had been C-betting the flop 12 times out of 13 opportunities. So basically every single time, he had the chance. Sure 13 is not the largest sample in the world, but it is still fairly unlikely, that someone will find 12 good C-betting spots out of 13. A number of 6-8 would be more normal.

A lot of a typical CO open range has missed 984 completely, and if he was C-betting basically his entire range, he would have a lot of A high, K high etc., that could not stand a raise but was still ahead of me. So I raised, and sure enough he folded, and I took it down.

So this is how, HUD-data are used during play. I play around 30.000 hands per month online, so there is no way, I would be able to manually remember, how often all my opponents are C-betting the flop. Therefore it is usefull for me to let a tracker collect this information for me and display it on a HUD during play.

Does this give me an advantage over people not using a HUD? Sure. And therefore I will also advice everyone, who is serious about online poker, to either use one, or at a minimum play on a site, where they are not allowed, so you dont put yourself at a disadvantage to other players.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Or imagine, that you had instruments in your car telling your speed, the engine revs, the engine temperature, how much fuel is left, or when your car need a service. It would completely ruin the fun of driving. (End of sarcasm).

Imagine the WSOP with an extra chair and small table for each seat for the note taking secretary and their computer.

There are no HUDs in live poker, so why should HUDs be allowed in online poker.

Originally Posted by Zorba

There are no HUDs in live poker, so why should HUDs be allowed in online poker.

Because its not live poker. You might as well say, that there are no instruments on your bicycle, so why should there be instruments in an aeroplane. Now I dont mind online poker without HUDs, but I seriously dont understand, why so many people keep hating on them.

Originally Posted by Zorba

Imagine the WSOP with an extra chair and small table for each seat for the note taking secretary and their computer.

Well that would indeed look rather silly. But do you really think, there are any people running deep in the WSOP, who dont spend part of their breaks, evenings etc. talking to their coach and going through hands, that were shown on TV? So the reality is probably not all that far away from, what you describe here. The only difference is, that the coach is not seated at the table.

They can't stop it. Just like botting.

When you start a tourney,have an idea what the numbers would look like,,,,and adjust your play accordingly. And mix-up your bet sizing with a little sporadic play,,,

Originally Posted by prizzy711

They can't stop it. Just like botting.

This is also a very good point. Maybe if you are playing 10NL cash games or 3$ tournaments, this is not a big worry, because these limits are soft anyway, so there is no huge incentive to cheat in order to gain a small edge and win pennies.

But you if are playing for real money like 100+NL cash games or 22+$ tournaments, then I would feel extremely unsafe at PartyPoker now. Its not a question IF, but only HOW and WHEN some people will find ways to use illegal HUDs, and good luck to the safety staff trying to stop this in a world full of very talented IT-people and hackers.

I think other poker rooms should follow the footsteps of PartyPoker, I think it would be fair for novice players like me.

Originally Posted by dompoker

I think other poker rooms should follow the footsteps of PartyPoker, I think it would be fair for novice players like me.

That makes no sense at all.. being new to something does not mean that others should change the rulles or make new rulles to acomodate bad people.. just improve your game

Originally Posted by Gohaku94

That makes no sense at all.. being new to something does not mean that others should change the rulles or make new rulles to acomodate bad people.. just improve your game

That comment is a little bit arrogant. If you dont want to use a HUD for whatever reason, it totally make sense, that you would rather, that nobody else can use one either. However many HUD free tables already exist, so people can just go to those. On 888 poker for instance the SNAP tables are HUD free.

The real problem with PartyPoker is not, that they have gotten rid of HUDs. The problem is, that they have gotten rid of hand histories. This takes away the possibility for players to review their hands later to learn and improve, and it makes cheating easier, so it put the safety of all players at risk.

And this is the reason, why you will not be finding me at PartyPoker anytime soon. Its not their ban on HUDs, nor their random seating or anything else.

Hello I reckon its unfair of partypoker to ban HUD's I see the HUD software as a valuable tool to utilise all available information and make correct decisions.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Its not a question IF, but only HOW and WHEN some people will find ways to use illegal HUDs, and good luck to the safety staff trying to stop this in a world full of very talented IT-people and hackers.

And watching that interview they posted with R. Yong talking about the new Partypoker without HUDs wasn't very re-assurinig at all Seemed a bit ridiculous tbh.

One thing I have noticed on Partypoker since they've removed HH's & HUDs. The numbers are wayyyy down on the Cash tables (like about 1/3 of what there was prior) and the general style of play is definitely not softer at all. (it actually reminds me of when there were lots of BOTs playing on there 6 mos. ago (FastForward tables had quite a few of them... I know this as this is what I had played many hands at & I'd received refunds from PP. (and some other reasons as well)).
I've actually moved almost all of my play over to Pokerstars ... & I had thought I would be continuing to play on PP. Change in plans!

Originally Posted by prizzy711

They can't stop it. Just like botting.

Yeah they can. Poker sites have access to what you are using on your desktop when you are playing on their site. What they could do is offer their own HUD that players can determine whether they want to use or not.

Originally Posted by mk0523

Yeah they can. Poker sites have access to what you are using on your desktop when you are playing on their site. What they could do is offer their own HUD that players can determine whether they want to use or not.

This is true. I have received "warning" emails from STARS before for just having software open (not using) while playing a session. Actually, a little scary the amount of info the sites can ascertain about your PC while playing.

Originally Posted by mk0523

Yeah they can. Poker sites have access to what you are using on your desktop when you are playing on their site. What they could do is offer their own HUD that players can determine whether they want to use or not.

Damn. That sucks