When to shove pre-flop (Day 13 Course Discussion)

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Coinuss

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I like the push rules and I like the magic range. I heard 10bb push and I didn't push when more than 25% in the middle. Sometimes I lose by following these rules, but that doesn't mean the rules are bad. When I win, it gives me the opportunity to go deeper into the MTT stage.
Thank Collin and Katie.
 
freddydr87

freddydr87

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Greate leason i loved it,im a cash player so i dont face to manny situation in were i get jammered preflop or i have to jam preflop,is is more tipical in MTT and SitnGo, but thanks so much for the info i will need it to use it in the CC tourneis
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

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I like the push rules and I like the magic range. I heard 10bb push and I didn't push when more than 25% in the middle. Sometimes I lose by following these rules, but that doesn't mean the rules are bad. When I win, it gives me the opportunity to go deeper into the MTT stage.
Thank Collin and Katie.


I love your point about it not meaning the rules are bad just because we will still lose some of the time when we follow them! Glad you found this section helpful :)
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

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Greate leason i loved it,im a cash player so i dont face to manny situation in were i get jammered preflop or i have to jam preflop,is is more tipical in MTT and SitnGo, but thanks so much for the info i will need it to use it in the CC tourneis


Glad you enjoyed it Freddy!
 
king11682

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Well it's an all-or-nothing situation and basically you have to make one of two decisions. And it is essential when we are below the minimum big blind percentage. There is a mistake a minimum bet. Either you fold your hand before the flop or you go all in, waiting for you to double up. There is practically no other decision you can make apart from these two in this case.
 
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hanio75

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Hello, reallys very cool these guidelines for when to play shove or fold. I think that many don't know, but it is just bet all the chips being based on stacks. I particularly search bet shove against 2 or 3 players at most and with cards that are part of the position range or when they have small stacks and need to get some chips to try advance in the tournament. Learned new contents again. This course is very good. After finish I want to print the ebook for that I can read again.
 
Katie Dozier

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Hello, reallys very cool these guidelines for when to play shove or fold. I think that many don't know, but it is just bet all the chips being based on stacks. I particularly search bet shove against 2 or 3 players at most and with cards that are part of the position range or when they have small stacks and need to get some chips to try advance in the tournament. Learned new contents again. This course is very good. After finish I want to print the ebook for that I can read again.


Very glad to hear that you're enjoying the course, Hanio :) I think it is smart that you're starting out by focusing on the shoves that are against a limited number of players as those will be the most frequent scenarios that pop up--way to go!
 
theANMATOR

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Just hate the rag Aces shove and pray spots

a rule that I will always shove (or play in some way) any Ace for ten bbs or less in the small blind (with the exception of very extreme ICM situations).

focusing on making the correct plays, getting our money in correctly and then zooming out to the long run when we will win the % of the time we’re supposed to. ;)

Hey Katie - not to question the push fold charts/rules but to me it seems several of the spots in the video were quite loose.
@10:32 A/2 o in the CO - to me seems like a weak shove. I get the point being under 10bb, but A/2 off is a poopy hand and we have very little fold equity. :)

Likewise @16:34 A/8 rag - to me - seems like a weak shove. Considering we have approximately 17bb, a call seems like a better play here. It's a tough spot post flop anyway, flop tp with either card - check/call? Or just open folding allows us to conserve the remainder of our stack to find a better spot in 10+ orbits. Ace rags are the worst oop.

Lastly - the last hand pocket 55s - meh - I could go any one of any of the possible ways here - not just shove/fold. 3bet call/fold? Open fold? :) I might be showing my nitt-i-ness here. :)
As you stated - because of ICM - with the shorty in the bb with only 7bb, to me - the shove with 55s isn't considerate of that player busting before us. If btn had folded pre - for me - 55 is a slam dunk jam.

I agree with the push/fold common rules, but I've had better luck shoving suited broadways, suited connectors instead of rag aces, in optimal spots / stacks where the Ace rag is considered a shoveable hand.

Thanks for your hard work and input.
 
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panaloto

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Here is an instance of a game where I do shove with these kinds of hands pre-flop because stealthy moves at this level are few and far between...but again:(
As usual, my probability of winning is usually promising at the outset but diminishes rapidly.


Happens to me rather regularly as well: start really great but get nothing at showdown and more often when I have the lower stack.
 
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HerbPuffer

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The negative is unfortunately way more remembered than when we ourselves suck out on someone, which is just human nature.;)


One of the biggest things my Ol'Man taught early in life. It came up again, many years after he said that to me, when I was being coached/staked pre-BF.

You remember just about every time that your aces get cracked, how many of the times your aces winning do you remember though? Probably just a handful of big hands.
 
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kristersb123

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Pushing is really important in tournament poker, a lot of CardsChat freeroll players dont know about pushing ranges and +EV spots what u can get by just going all in. CardsChat players should learn more about preflop shoving and ranges. Can't rememember how many times I have been called a fish for shoving pre in totally standard spot.
 
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slais_pro

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Do you still think what the structure of the tournament is and what kind of jumps in the prize money, sometimes it is better not to push and wait a little, although in general, if the hand is normal and the prize money does not press so much, then the push-fold strategy is what you need, not any difficult decisions on the post-flop all-in and nothing else is needed)))
 
Collin Moshman

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I’m leaving this comment as a placeholder that Katie or I will reply in the next couple of days to the recent questions in this thread.

We’re traveling now and posting from phones and it will be a lot easier to give good specific answers to these when I’m back on my computer :)

Please feel free to continue posting here in the meanwhile and sorry for the delay!
 
Collin Moshman

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Hey Katie - not to question the push fold charts/rules but to me it seems several of the spots in the video were quite loose.
@10:32 A/2 o in the CO - to me seems like a weak shove. I get the point being under 10bb, but A/2 off is a poopy hand and we have very little fold equity. :)

Likewise @16:34 A/8 rag - to me - seems like a weak shove. Considering we have approximately 17bb, a call seems like a better play here. It's a tough spot post flop anyway, flop tp with either card - check/call? Or just open folding allows us to conserve the remainder of our stack to find a better spot in 10+ orbits. Ace rags are the worst oop.

Lastly - the last hand pocket 55s - meh - I could go any one of any of the possible ways here - not just shove/fold. 3bet call/fold? Open fold? :) I might be showing my nitt-i-ness here. :)
As you stated - because of ICM - with the shorty in the bb with only 7bb, to me - the shove with 55s isn't considerate of that player busting before us. If btn had folded pre - for me - 55 is a slam dunk jam.

I agree with the push/fold common rules, but I've had better luck shoving suited broadways, suited connectors instead of rag aces, in optimal spots / stacks where the Ace rag is considered a shoveable hand.

Thanks for your hard work and input.


Good questions! I know you're addressing them to Katie and she made the video, but let me give a few replies to these spots :)

A2: This is a profitable shove since the alternative is to get blinded out. ICM software like ICMizer will do expected value calculations and show us that we want to shove here, and even hands that are weaker like K4o may be better to shove (and take a negative edge) rather than let us get hit with the big blind.

A8o: I like jamming here but agree with you that calling is a reasonable alternative!

55: We're too shallow to call and play out of position. This shove is a very nice one because our opponent will often fold which is a great outcome. And when we get called, it's usually a flip because it's much easier to get dealt high cards than high pairs. So trust us that this type of shove is a really good one to get in the habit of making!
 
Collin Moshman

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Do you still think what the structure of the tournament is and what kind of jumps in the prize money, sometimes it is better not to push and wait a little, although in general, if the hand is normal and the prize money does not press so much, then the push-fold strategy is what you need, not any difficult decisions on the post-flop all-in and nothing else is needed)))


Yes the structure does influence how patient we can be. In a hyper-turbo tournament, we should almost always take a close spot with 15bb. In a slow speed tournament we might sometimes fold instead.

Most of the time the standard factors like position and effective stack are enough info. But where it's otherwise close, you're definitely right that structure factors like level length can be very important :)
 
Good Man

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Yes the structure does influence how patient we can be. In a hyper-turbo tournament, we should almost always take a close spot with 15bb. In a slow speed tournament we might sometimes fold instead.

Most of the time the standard factors like position and effective stack are enough info. But where it's otherwise close, you're definitely right that structure factors like level length can be very important :)

Hello. I used to be advised that you should perform a push fold when you have 15 blinds or even less, and of course considering your position. But the fact that you need to consider the ante I hear for the first time.
Yes, with A 2 o I usually with such cases with 10 BB go all in.
The same situation with A 8 and 55 I think a little and do exactly the same as in the video.
But when there are situations let's say you have 16bb. For Q10 cards, J10 connectors or king 5 o. I think for a long time and in the end I throw off such cards. How wide do you need to open in such cases??? What is the opening range?




Life is a game , play beautiful
 
Katie Dozier

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Hello. I used to be advised that you should perform a push fold when you have 15 blinds or even less, and of course considering your position. But the fact that you need to consider the ante I hear for the first time.
Yes, with A 2 o I usually with such cases with 10 BB go all in.
The same situation with A 8 and 55 I think a little and do exactly the same as in the video.
But when there are situations let's say you have 16bb. For Q10 cards, J10 connectors or king 5 o. I think for a long time and in the end I throw off such cards. How wide do you need to open in such cases??? What is the opening range?




Life is a game , play beautiful


There are times when I would still prefer to open-shove with a 16bb stack, but those times will certainly be the exception, not the norm. Those situations would be ICM intensive ones where we are the mid-stack but have a profitable open-shove versus opponents that we’re confident would 3-bet shove (correctly) wide were we instead to min-raise open.

Day 6 is our guide to pre-flop which gives suggested opening ranges in case you’re looking for more specific information, though of course every poker situation tends to vary a bit. We want to make sure to always be thinking in terms of position, which is particularly true when it comes to opening ranges.
 
Good Man

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There are times when I would still prefer to open-shove with a 16bb stack, but those times will certainly be the exception, not the norm. Those situations would be ICM intensive ones where we are the mid-stack but have a profitable open-shove versus opponents that we’re confident would 3-bet shove (correctly) wide were we instead to min-raise open.

Day 6 is our guide to pre-flop which gives suggested opening ranges in case you’re looking for more specific information, though of course every poker situation tends to vary a bit. We want to make sure to always be thinking in terms of position, which is particularly true when it comes to opening ranges.
I should repeat and consolidate my knowledge! Thank you very much!:icon_thum




Life is a game , play beautiful
 
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fundiver199

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There are times when I would still prefer to open-shove with a 16bb stack, but those times will certainly be the exception, not the norm. Those situations would be ICM intensive ones where we are the mid-stack but have a profitable open-shove versus opponents that we’re confident would 3-bet shove (correctly) wide were we instead to min-raise open.

Day 6 is our guide to pre-flop which gives suggested opening ranges in case you’re looking for more specific information, though of course every poker situation tends to vary a bit. We want to make sure to always be thinking in terms of position, which is particularly true when it comes to opening ranges.

There are times when I would still prefer to open-shove with a 16bb stack, but those times will certainly be the exception, not the norm. Those situations would be ICM intensive ones where we are the mid-stack but have a profitable open-shove versus opponents that we’re confident would 3-bet shove (correctly) wide were we instead to min-raise open.

Day 6 is our guide to pre-flop which gives suggested opening ranges in case you’re looking for more specific information, though of course every poker situation tends to vary a bit. We want to make sure to always be thinking in terms of position, which is particularly true when it comes to opening ranges.

Just want to add, that in low buyin MTTs its also going to be a very common occurence, that one or more players have limped into the pot, when the action gets to you. If the original limper has limped UTG with a 13BB stack and is playing 13/11, then its probably a trap, and I will typically fold or knock my option.

However the more typical scenario is, that a fish limp into the pot with some marginal holding, another fish limp behind, and then a reg limp behind on BTN. And in these kind of situations I feel, I have literally printed money by jamming it in with even fairly large stacks and either picking it up a ton or getting it heads up against someone, who decide to play the table sheriff with his 44 or his A6 offsuit :)
 
Collin Moshman

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Just want to add, that in low buyin MTTs its also going to be a very common occurence, that one or more players have limped into the pot, when the action gets to you. If the original limper has limped UTG with a 13BB stack and is playing 13/11, then its probably a trap, and I will typically fold or knock my option.

However the more typical scenario is, that a fish limp into the pot with some marginal holding, another fish limp behind, and then a reg limp behind on BTN. And in these kind of situations I feel, I have literally printed money by jamming it in with even fairly large stacks and either picking it up a ton or getting it heads up against someone, who decide to play the table sheriff with his 44 or his A6 offsuit :)


Absolutely, limpers have a huge impact on risk-reward ratio and in some cases can make it a good option to shove in a stack of up to 30bb or so without a raise (for example, we have 55 in the small blind facing 5 previous limps). So that's a very good point to look out for these spots where you can either take down a large pot pre-flop or get it in with reasonable equity against the sheriff :)
 
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Well, for me, the most crucial point of the class was the importance of the effective stack concept to guide our plays in the situations shown. Thank you very much CC for claryfing this for me!

Next stop: Day 14, for sure.
 
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Phyrrura

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Guess I'll be shoving even more from now on

This is the second time I watched this video, and I really felt that I was missing this lesson in my games, and now that I could put this in a context, I really appreciate a lot more the lesson.
 
carmenzu

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In this chapter the amount of BB has a lot to do with making a decision, It also influences which stage of the tournament we are in (in case we are in a tournament).
 
bapfel

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Thank you for this lesson. I think it will help me playing as in MTTs I often waited to long for better pocket cards not to leave to fast, when I got them I won but my stack was already too low, so I often lost one or two BBs later, especially in Hyper Tournaments.

So I will try this strategy and check my results :)
 
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