When to shove pre-flop (Day 13 Course Discussion)

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RUNRRUNRTO

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For me personally depends on the cards I have. Most of the time, I only play good cards when I have less then 15BB. Can't win a game with 29o.


That’s a great strategy if it works for you. For me I’m more focused my folding equity vs my opponents folding equity & expected value from each hand. I know based on previous experience that I will not win a tournament, sitting around waiting for a premium hand, like aces-especially when I’m short stack lol. That being said, my preference will be to open shove with a hand that has strong showdown value. Unfortunately in most cases you may get blinded out before that happens.
 
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RUNRRUNRTO

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Oh just to quickly mention: I have actually won hands with 2-9os but perhaps I’m a crazy donk ;)
 
Riccoboni

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I only play MTT, so I need to think about the tournament. That way to shove pre flop only after half the tournament or if pot is guaranteed
 
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Milez1991

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Under 20bb Broadway connector, pockets under 10 10 i shove
 
Pokerpoet2

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Before shoving pre-flop I take a number of things into consideration, Position in the hand, Stack size, Cards I am holding, How close to the bubble we are, How many are in the pot, have there been any raising or re-raising, All these and other factors have to be considered before you shove all-in.
Sometimes I will do it with any 2 cards if I intend to just steal the blinds and antes, but even if you shove the the best possible hand there will be other players in a similar situation and will call with practically any 2 cards just to take you out. And I have lost count how many times I have shoved with Pocket Aces only to be beaten with a inferior hand.
I remember one hand I played in a Bounty Hunter game, the chip leader with the most bounties had lost a couple of hands that cost him the chip lead and brought him into my range, so when he pushed all-in pre-flop I had him covered and as my pocket pair were bottom of my range I felt it was a definite call, if I could take his bounty I would have made a bigger amount in bounties than the prize money that was on offer, so to try and Isolate I re-shoved all-in and everyone bar the button folded.
The button also shoved with 4/8 off, I was holding 6/6 and the bounty in play showed A/K off. I was shocked when the flop came 4,4,8, and the button took both of us out.
If the button had just folded I would have won that bounty and it would have given me a decent chip stack to continue playing, But as they say That's Poker!

When the fun Stops, STOP!
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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For me personally depends on the cards I have. Most of the time, I only play good cards when I have less then 15BB. Can't win a game with 29o.


This is the right approach for sure in most situations, although like we say there are some any-two-cards spots particularly from the small blind with a short effective stack. Ideally the big blind is also playing too tight and there's a great dynamic for pressuring your opponent such as big stack vs mid stack on the bubble.

Holding up 92o would make for an epic winner's photo :D
 
xOneCoolHandx

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Quiz

1. Shove over the single raise
2. Shove/fold spot. I like Katie's shove, for me it would depend on how the other players have been playing
3. Oddly enough, another shove spot. Part B: I wouldn't shove if I had a read that the original limper is a player who limp/traps with monsters.
4. Shove
5. Shove

Question: How do you feel about push/fold charts?
 
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Senator30

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I’ll shove any time with K’s or A’s. other than that it will just depend on how many blinds I have. Anything less than ten and my range gets pretty wide
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

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1. Shove over the single raise
2. Shove/fold spot. I like Katie's shove, for me it would depend on how the other players have been playing
3. Oddly enough, another shove spot. Part B: I wouldn't shove if I had a read that the original limper is a player who limp/traps with monsters.
4. Shove
5. Shove

Question: How do you feel about push/fold charts?


I feel like they’re very important as a baseline for our own understanding but can be overused in terms of missing out on more profitable adjustments versus a lot of players [emoji106]
 
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DoofusBazaar

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I'm so glad to hear that I encouraged you! Thanks for letting me know :)


Hey Katie, found this lesson really informative! Took some notes and will be using these guidelines!

I'm a bit confused about the AT hand in the quiz. I thought effective stack meant the shortest stack in the hand? I'm not sure how the villain 174 comes into this as surely the effective stack is villain 10 with 1149?

Also if you're down to 10-5bb what kind of range would you shove, do you open it up and just hope for the best? haha

thanks
 
okeedokalee

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D & B poker has a good push/fold chart available.
 
Collin Moshman

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Hey Katie, found this lesson really informative! Took some notes and will be using these guidelines!

I'm a bit confused about the AT hand in the quiz. I thought effective stack meant the shortest stack in the hand? I'm not sure how the villain 174 comes into this as surely the effective stack is villain 10 with 1149?

Also if you're down to 10-5bb what kind of range would you shove, do you open it up and just hope for the best? haha

thanks


Good questions Doofus! I hope it's okay that I'll take a shot at these even though you asked Katie. When you cover your opponents still active in the hand, the effective stack is the largest of the remaining stacks which in this case is the player to our left. Another way of looking at this is that the effective stack is the most you can possibly lose during the hand, which in this example is 1783.

With 5-10bb, definitely open up like you said! Exact range depends on whether it's closer to 5bb or 10bb and position. For example, with 5bb in the small blind I'd shove anything besides total junk. With 10bb UTG, we should fold hands as strong as A8o, KTo, and 87s.
 
David macdonald

David macdonald

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Interesting and nice to watch, I always use the 10BB + 20BB stack to shove pre flop anyway so its nice to know I did something right LOL.

Its a good guidline to use, I think I need to improve on 4-5x raises with big hands and shoves 20BB with weaker single raise hands like AJ, A10.

Thanks
 
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Mirougz

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I think it all depends on the opponents and your hands and your feelings good luck everyone💋
 
henriquemaduro

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I used to play shove-fold looking only to my stack and not to effective stack. Thanks a lot, it will be a huge improve to my game.
 
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EvanX26

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Thanks for the video - the whole course has been really good so far.

I do too often find myself near the bubble with a shortish stack and there is always a part of me that wants to limp on for min cash but I guess its better to miss a few min cashes in exchange for getting through the bubble with a decent stack and taking a deeper run.

Last few days have been trying to make myself do this so instead of a standard raise pre I'm shoving with stacks in the 10-15bb range.

Not sure that I will always do it but I like the discipline of thinking bout it as an option.

There's a Jonathan Little video on youtube where he is a bit disparaging about all in or fold. I'll see if i can find it but for now I'm trying to practice it enough that it feels like a more natural thing to do rather than being scary and once I'm comfortable with it ill think more about deviating.
 
barbados

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Five tips are great. But I'll add a sixth tip - don't listen to anyone's advice and play your game.
 
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BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch

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Day 13 Power Poker: When to Shove Pre-Flop
Need to do 10-12, did 14.

Tidbits
Less than 15bb effective stack (with an ante)
Less than 10bb effective stack (without an ante)
effective stack??

Over a Single Raise
Less than 25bb effective stack (with an ante)
Less than 20bb effective stack (without an ante)
And other spots: Theres 25% or more of the effective stack in the pot

The first review question with the AQs, ugh, I just can't play this way. I could never play this way. You start the hand with 2502, UTG+1 raises so they probably have something, only 240 to call taking you down to 2250 if by chance its heads up with plenty more looks and having to go thru a lot less folks to steal later on in the next orbits. AQ is a drawing hand. This idea especially makes zero sense to me if I know i can out play these people at the table. The BB is shoving if they have anything so you're going to face at least that one and villain already said they have something raising UTG+1.

The A8 example, beside the math of simply stealing the blinds, lol, there must be some preflop chart or supercomputer spitting out something saying to do this especially if you're in something that has long blind levels. I just could never go all in with A8o with that much chips behind compared to the blinds, that's a trash hand. Throwing my tourn life on trash to take that down isn't the way for me. I gotta let this stuff go for the professional players, lol. It's too advanced for me. I'll take my chances playing with a lot less than tossing it in with trash when I have to. Especially as you go deeper and deeper in a tourn where the antes make up so much then 1 or 2 double ups and you're back in it.

With the ATo example, I'm not concerned with the 2 limpers they're dead money but the 3 left to act that are short stacked are an issue. You have them covered so you could mix it up but that 1700 stack is a concern. You're the chip leader and if I can steal from them and not risk the chip lead then I would go that route. Less exposure, you don't risk the chip lead and if you lose that hand then someone at the table has you covered.

The AJ example depends on what that raiser has been playing like. Again too much poker to play.

The 5s example, I would probably fold it. But I wouldn't mind seeing a flop with that. If you call the raise you have to be comfortable losing the 3200 if the the BB shoves and the Button calls. If the BB shoves and the But folds then we call and hope its a coin flip rather being crushed with an over pair. If you call, the BB shoves and the But calls then I'd fold to see if villain257 can get booted and we gain their tourn equity. And you can't call a shove for 14580 because if you lose then you'll be crippled if 257 wins or even if 129 wins the pot, either way you lose calling a shove from 257. Out of position and only with 5s is going to be hard to play unless you know the But plays certain big cards and none are on the flop.

What you're looking for is what is the BBs response in this example. If the But wins gets rid of the BB then we're in good shape still since they'd have 90k and we'd have 40k and we're 2 hands from winning the tourn while we collect villain257's tourn equity. The worst thing is going all in here and bust while villan257 laughs and collects my tourn equity being short stacked.

Liked the lesson, I may disagree with the philosophy but its good to try to understand what opponents are thinking. It got me thinking about the hands which is way better than just watching the vid and saying "ok, great, next vid", lol. So another good lesson and something to think about and perhaps one day, someday I can incorporate these plays into my game. But I definitely got something out of the lesson.
 
mariussica88

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Finished day 13...17 to go

Such a joyful presentation, I enjoy it a lot. I am used to push only <15 BB because most of my flips tend to fail :D even if there is an ante :). It seems that 25 BB is a little big to play push or fold.
But I'm not a Pro, so I will try to implement this advices into my game.
 
Oranaro

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Cash games

Normally,playing always at least the full buy in is the norm in cash games, but as a beginner, and to make a better control on the bankroll, I do not refill it automatically, so it happens to fall down to low stack, but it's not an mtt, and the blind won't get bigger, so I suppose that going all in should be tighter. Is it true? Of course I'm not takling about exploitive gamestyle, where I would shove wider against passive players.
 
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cowboybebop

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Literally the hand rhat hate the most is AQ when they shove. They always have AK KK or QQ AA.
 
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Chase

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Shock and awe, or "power poker". The theory makes sense from a military perspective assuming your opponent lacks the strength or courage to defend themselves. Works best though when you have a sizable power advantage. Not sure that 10 - 25 big blinds is going to scare folks off. Certainly didn't seem to in the lesson examples or the games that I tried it in personally yesterday.

Still, from a poker perspective I bow to the wisdom of Katie and Collin and will keep this tool in my kit bag.
 
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Atararo14

Atararo14

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Day #13 finished


Thank you for this lesson.


The quiz answers :


1. In this spot, we have to 3-bet shove because there’s an ante and villain 158 has raised and we are sub 25bb.


2. In spot n°2, we have sub 20bb stack so we can to 3-bet shove because there's more than 25% of our stack in the middle.


3. In spot n°3, the effective stack is 1783 and there's an ante but any one has raised before, I think we can shove with AT on the button cause we have the fold equity.


4. In spot n°4, it's a shove because there's an ante and villain 502 has raised and the effective stack is 4233 less than 25bb.


5. In spot n°5, villain 127 with 36bb stack raise and there's villain 257 with less than 7bb stack, we have to fold 55 with 20bb stack and wait for villain 257 to bust.
 
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