When to shove pre-flop (Day 13 Course Discussion)

Debi

Debi

Forum Admin
Administrator
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Total posts
70,708
Awards
20
This should be a popular topic because we get a lot of questions in the forum about When to Shove Pre-flop.

If you have not yet read Day 13 and watched the video for Day 13 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

When to Shove Pre-Flop

One of the most important parts of pre-flop play is knowing when to put all of your chips in the pot. Collin and Katie review the 5 guidelines for when to shove pre-flop. Katies gives some great examples in the video - let's talk about shoving pre-flop.

If you have any questions about shoving pre-flop for Katie or Collin this is the place to ask them!

12dd68a9ad0e7e5f43c8123d426e44ad.png

9bae48e8b0b6064ee1698bd2e01bd23b.png
 
Last edited:
Polytarp

Polytarp

Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Total posts
1,220
Awards
1
A retired Air Traffic Controller once told me that in his workplace there were three things to consider: Guidelines, Procedures and Rules. Guidelines were rules of thumb, Procedures were Guidelines which nearly always worked and Rules were unquestioned. Could you provide an example of a Rule vs a Procedure when shoving for your poker survival?
Although AQ is a good hand it's the one I've lost most chips on by shoving. Only when I'm in a hyper-turbo game will I shove Ax regularly because I won't have the time to pick and choose good starting hands. I'm attaching a screen shot of one of those things that could go wrong when everything seems right...
 

Attachments

  • lk.jpg
    lk.jpg
    82 KB · Views: 214
Polytarp

Polytarp

Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Total posts
1,220
Awards
1
Here is an instance of a game where I do shove with these kinds of hands pre-flop because stealthy moves at this level are few and far between...but again:(
As usual, my probability of winning is usually promising at the outset but diminishes rapidly.
 

Attachments

  • aa.jpg
    aa.jpg
    86.9 KB · Views: 182
  • aa1.jpg
    aa1.jpg
    44.1 KB · Views: 181
Polytarp

Polytarp

Legend
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Total posts
1,220
Awards
1
Another example of where the unexpected happens. Out of curiosity, how often should I be looking at results like this? I realize the probabilities speak for themselves but I'm almost at the point of betting against myself to win despite having goods hands and following through.
 

Attachments

  • shiv.jpg
    shiv.jpg
    72 KB · Views: 173
  • xx.jpg
    xx.jpg
    30.8 KB · Views: 173
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,332
Awards
2
Another example of where the unexpected happens. Out of curiosity, how often should I be looking at results like this? I realize the probabilities speak for themselves but I'm almost at the point of betting against myself to win despite having goods hands and following through.


In terms of procedure versus rules, I believe guidelines are true in terms of shoving ranges and then there are the absolute minimums that are going to be profitable to shove regardless of your opponent (Ie hands that I would shove regardless of any specific knowledge of my opponents because they are so +EV). An example of that that first pops in my mind of a rule that I will always shove (or play in some way) any Ace for ten bbs or less in the small blind (with the exception of very extreme ICM situations). Someone’s procedure in that case could be something as simple as shoving wide with 10bbs in the small blind.

I try to avoid looking at run outs whenever possible. I don’t find that much good really can come from it. We should be focusing on making the correct plays, getting our money in correctly and then zooming out to the long run when we will win the % of the time we’re supposed to. If we watch every run out, I’ve found it’s very easy to feel like we’re running bad. The negative is unfortunately way more remembered than when we ourselves suck out on someone, which is just human nature. So for me personally, I always try to avoid watching run outs, though I can’t help but peek in the big spots ;)
 
PsychoVas

PsychoVas

What The Duck???
Joined
May 4, 2013
Total posts
1,776
Awards
4
Have to agree for your laugh and for the writer's quote. Wise words.
I also have to thank you for clarrifying and ultimately correcting one misconception I've had for years now. I focused only on my stack and not on the effective one.
Great work!
 
Luvart

Luvart

Legend
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Total posts
1,283
Awards
15
Finished Day #13.

A good refreshment of the preflop shove-fold concept.

For today;s quiz:

i)AQs hand:

Effective Stack: 20.85bb (<25bb) and there are antes on the table. We should 3bet-allin in this spot.

ii)A8o hand:

Effective Stack ~18bb (<25bb) and there are antes on the table. We should 3bet-allin this spot.

iii)A10o hand:

Effective Stack ~18bb (>15bb) and there are antes on the table. Our hand is ahead of limper's range, so shoving is good option here, although according to the guide the effective stack needs to be <= 15bb. But I would consider an iso-raise here.

iv)AJo hand:

Effective Stack ~17bb (<25bb) and there are antes on the table. We should 3bet-allin in this spot.

v)55 hand:

Effective Stack ~19.7bb (<25bb) and there are antes on the table. I would 3bet-allin in this spot.

Tomorrow with Day #14.
 
cferdi

cferdi

Rock Star
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Total posts
164
Awards
1
I'm a bit confused regarding the AT hand (I think it was #3?).

If I understood correctly, the effective stack was Villain 174 with 1783 chips. BB = 100, so <18bb. However, there was no raise in front, so shouldn't we be using the Open Raise guideline of <15bb to shove? Should it not have been a raise instead?

Or do the flat callers change this?:rolleyes:

Otherwise, love the guidelines. I tend not to shove preflop very often although many of my opponents at micro stakes do, so having several allins in a single hand is not unusual. I will do it with a very tight range and have knocked out many players this way, but hands like AQo - no, lost too many with those. I tend to prefer suited cards, so maybe AQs, but it's more often a call than a shove because I'm rarely first in, lol.

However, I have noted down the guidelines as they may be useful, especially if I get short-stacked where I tend to get very tight or late tourney? Might be more helpful than gut, hehe
 
Last edited:
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

Poker Expert
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Total posts
1,317
Awards
3
Thanks Psycho and Luvart!

Cferdi, the effective stack in this hand is 1783 just like you said, well done there :) But even in limped pots, if there's much over 20% of the effective stack in the middle, you're good to jam hands that you play. Thanks for clarifying this point!
 
J

jeanpierre1279

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 2, 2016
Total posts
95
Awards
1
Day 13 -Power Poker: When to Shove Pre-Flop

Katie Dozier's words just few lines above these comments were of enormous happiness and experience that managed to re-encourage me to play, because less remembering the plays that made me win even with minor or even equities due to the conditions of the games, the bad beats, mainly at crucial moments of the game or when we have a much greater equity, they make us give up completely, because we invest hours and dollars in a fruitless mission and that, many times, it is difficult to return there.

But I will always keep looking forward because really, one day it works out, it can be very worthwhile and recover a lot of what was lost, whether it be your morals, your cash, or both, why not?

Good Luck and lets move foward:jd4::eek:
 
belizebum

belizebum

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Total posts
2,992
Awards
12
I am not a fan of the shove fold theory. I am old school, chip and chair. I will go down as low as possible in BB to find the right hand to double up. And continue to do that until I have a reasonable stack again. I play short stack fairly well and have managed to win tourneys like this.

I will keep the rules in mind and maybe try it out a few times. I don't like risking my whole stack on a flip. "All in, all out" Maybe works better in live play. Too much variance in online poker.
 
freddydr87

freddydr87

League Champion
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Total posts
4,002
Awards
30
Greate leason i loved it,im a cash player so i dont face to manny situation in were i get jammered preflop or i have to jam preflop,is is more tipical in MTT and SitnGo, but thanks so much for the info i will need it to use it in the CC tourneis
 
redboy23

redboy23

Visionary
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Total posts
836
Awards
3
Hello CCers,

This chapter is definitely taking me out of my comfort zone and into new territory. This is good but will take some practice and getting used to. It also means that my shove range and shove frequency will increase as I would wait till 10 BB to go into shove-fold mode.

I can see the merit in the approach though since there are many times that I wold be pressured into folding mid suited connectors or low pocket pairs after a shove from villain.

Response to video question:

AQs:

Hero has 20 BB effective stack and there are antes involved so based on the guidelines a shove is in order. (Before this chapter, I would chapter I would have raised to $480 here but I like the increased odds that everyone may fold from the pressure)

A8o:

Hero has 18 BB facing a single opponent and there is an ante involved. Same as before, shove here based on guidelines.

ATo:

This would have been my answer before this chapter:
Hero has 30 BB which is not a shove or fold situation and can go ahead and bet. I would bet $500 there about, in this spot.

Now that I am thinking effective stack which is 7 BB, it is a clear shove putting maximum pressure on villains and playing good aggressive poker. Hero has everyone covered in chips. This is something, I must have missed on many occasions.

AJo:

Hero has about 17 BB with antes involved and should go ahead and shove based on the guidelines.

55:

Hero has 39 BB effective stack and is in the money. I would wait for a better spot to shove.

Wow, boy do I have to up the aggression. Very good insights in this chapter and I will be having fun trying out my newly found knowledge!
 
Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Total posts
2,592
Awards
4
I heard these "shove or fold" guidelines for without antes, but I didn't know WITH antes changed this. I kind of figured it would (since there is more dead money in the middle to potentially win), but I didn't know the guideline was 15bb and 20 bb for no raisers and one raiser in the pot, respectively. Good to refresh on fundamentals and learn some new things here and there :)
 
S

Sebarios59

Rock Star
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Total posts
231
I usually shove when my blinds are low or to make a move to collect chips as long as this doesn't pose a big risk to my stack.
 
tagece

tagece

Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2015
Total posts
1,644
Awards
2
BR
Nice lesson.

In this exemples, there were good hands enrolled. I think these guidelines are really correct in long term. But when it's time to shove any two? How many BBs you must have to risky with any hand?
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,332
Awards
2
Katie Dozier's words just few lines above these comments were of enormous happiness and experience that managed to re-encourage me to play, because less remembering the plays that made me win even with minor or even equities due to the conditions of the games, the bad beats, mainly at crucial moments of the game or when we have a much greater equity, they make us give up completely, because we invest hours and dollars in a fruitless mission and that, many times, it is difficult to return there.

But I will always keep looking forward because really, one day it works out, it can be very worthwhile and recover a lot of what was lost, whether it be your morals, your cash, or both, why not?

Good Luck and lets move foward:jd4::eek:
I'm so glad to hear that I encouraged you! Thanks for letting me know :)
 
Katie Dozier

Katie Dozier

Poker Expert
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Total posts
1,332
Awards
2
Nice lesson.

In this exemples, there were good hands enrolled. I think these guidelines are really correct in long term. But when it's time to shove any two? How many BBs you must have to risky with any hand?
Shove/fold mode in poker is one of those concepts that is riddled with so many variables and conditions that it's unfortunately impossible to answer without those, but hopefully this day in the course (both the ebook and the video) will help to continue to improve your grasp of this very important topic :)
 
veltins

veltins

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Total posts
2,489
Awards
2
JP
There are so many instances it can change with shove /fold stratergy. I love it when its in late stage. Its a definite to have in your armor if want to go deep . Thanks for this lesson , learnt a lot
 
K

karmakoumas

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Total posts
67
thank you for this video katie.
two more default rules to remember and to apply.
very excited to play like always since i begin this course.
hope you get more pair of black aces katie just like you want them :tee:
 
Glaucopone

Glaucopone

Rock Star
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Total posts
121
I find Katie's humility very cool, in the first example of the AA hand, she says that she did not feel so comfortable to play the post-flop and that she gained experience afterwards. This is especially safe for beginners like me who are still perfecting playing post-flop.
 
Top