The Two Types of Equity (Day 4 Course Discussion)

Debi

Debi

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On Day 4 Collin discusses the various types of equity.

If you have not yet read Day 4 and watched the video for Day 4 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it. Don't forget to take the quiz at the end of the video!:

The Two Types of Equity

This is the simplest and easiest to understand breakdown of equity that I have ever seen. Collin and Katie will be happy to explain this further and answer your questions in this thread.

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onecardsteve

onecardsteve

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this lesson needs to be thought of in my head, first question is what is the calculation used to determine a % equity. What is the best way to put hands inside Equilab to see the %. All other help is greatly appreciated
 
onecardsteve

onecardsteve

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I have a second question, yes you can think of a % of your chips bet to the pot, but how do you put an equity on the other player(s),

Is it equity on the cards or the money in the pot ?
 
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BamaRaised

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I have a second question, yes you can think of a % of your chips bet to the pot, but how do you put an equity on the other player(s),

Is it equity on the cards or the money in the pot ?
I believe you would calculate equity by putting your cards up against their expected range. Good questions though, I would like to know as well for sure.
 
Collin Moshman

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Thanks Debi!

Steve, nice question and I hope I'm understanding it correctly :) In Equilab, you would want to put in your hand first, and then your opponent's hand or range. At that point you click to Calculate and it gives the percentages. If you then multiple your % by the pot size, you get your total number-of-chips equity in the pot.

Hope that helps and thanks for posting Bama too, that's a good answer and it's definitely true that these are ranges we expect our opponents to have without knowing for sure!
 
Polytarp

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I believe this section contains one of the most important aspects of gaming..what is your presence worth and what are you bringing to the table. When you`re at a table everyone sizes you up in terms of equity...who thinks they can own you and who thinks you will own them. This is where equity first introduces itself (ie. The Professor, the Banker, and the Suicide King: Inside the Richest Poker Game of All Time). In the video, K9u vs JJ, if K9 was known to rarely go all-in then JJ would think it plausible to go all-in despite being at a known disadvantage. In my opinion, there should be another bit of information, possibly in the form of player notes or other format that must account for K9`s tendencies..a feasibility threshold for example.

The Kelly betting criterion was derived from Shannon`s work in information theory and in my opinion to properly assess the equity attributed to each player in the hand requires more information on each player`s behavioral tendencies. At the very least, there should be some volatility measure associated with the equity values as shown.

Although not explicit, certain intrinsic measures of data can be modeled surprisingly well with Benford`s Law. Can Benford`s Law, Zipf`s Law or other such statistical observations be used to enhance Kelly betting (thus equity)....other than finding weaker and wealthy poker players.
 
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BamaRaised

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Thanks Debi!

Steve, nice question and I hope I'm understanding it correctly :) In Equilab, you would want to put in your hand first, and then your opponent's hand or range. At that point you click to Calculate and it gives the percentages. If you then multiple your % by the pot size, you get your total number-of-chips equity in the pot.

Hope that helps and thanks for posting Bama too, that's a good answer and it's definitely true that these are ranges we expect our opponents to have without knowing for sure!
Thank you for the response and clarification. I am finding the series to be very helpful and it has taught me a lot so far. Much appreciated!
 
Luvart

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Finished Day #4.

i)KillDonk's equity: 8.8%

ii)KillDonk's equity in chips: ~47

iii)CO has a top pair with weak kicker on a two-flush flop. Even if Killdonk shoves, he could put him on the flush draw, or on a mid pair, like the pocket Jacks or pocket 10s, etc., and continue with his one-pair hand. It depends of course on what type of player the CO is. I would say Killdonk could find some fold equity is he shoves his whole stack and puts CO's tourney life in the mercy of a non-premium top pair.

iv)Didn't understand the question very well.:)

Tomorrow with Day #5.
 
Collin Moshman

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Thanks Bama!

Poly, we don't discuss Kelly Criterion much in this series so it's awesome you're posting that here so people see it :)

Luvart, good work completing the first four days so quickly!
 
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natelearnspoker

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Thanks for the video and write up on equity. I’ve always found it interesting because I would see percentages next to players’ hands on TV, but never knew that you could calculate it.

Are there common match ups where memorizing equities would helpful? I can think of AK vs pairs as one. I guess using Equilab could work, but I’d prefer having a couple numbers at my disposal. Any help would be appreciated!
 
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jeanpierre1279

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Day 4 - Equity

This Chapter is very important. The concept of equity greatly increases the level of play when it is allied to your range and especially to what you attribute to the villain.
Obviously both experience and information about the villains are extremely important at this time, because otherwise we can have a jackpot as in a casino against more aggressive players.


The concept of equity during the tournament is also equally important because the hero can see how much profit the player can make by sometimes being a minority participant in the number of chips during an action. This concept coupled with pot odds make the player make decisions during the most difficult hours of the tournament when the bankroll is reduced and the pots are higher, generating spot opportunities.

Finally, the concept of fold equity is very important but then I believe it depends on the information of the villains and sometimes if the table has already been on the flop, turn or river because otherwise as the villains do not know which hand you have they will call with good hands even very tall pots, sometimes making life in the tournament unfeasible.

Good lucky and lets move forward.:aetsch::jd4:
 
Collin Moshman

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Thanks Jean-Pierre!

Nate I appreciate that and you're exactly right -- it's just like watching TV poker where they give the %'s. My suggestion is to download Equilab for free and try out ones that interest you to see patterns.

A few good match-ups:

** Pair is slight favorite over random overcards
** Suited connectors are a slight favorite over low pair
** Any two low cards are usually at least 30% against two higher cards
** Domination (AK vs AT or AT vs JJ) -- weaker hand is usually also around 30%

Good luck!
 
PsychoVas

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Fold equity in tournaments is greater than in cash games and it increases with relative stack sizes. Great tool once you get the concept.
 
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pip77

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Is there not some fold equity from the k? Or would this card have to be an A to act as a scare card for us to Cbet on.

I’m presuming we don’t know the villains cards and have him on a range that calls our PF bet, so I would usually cbet here

I am probably wrong here
 
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ronn6583

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Very interesting topic.
On the preflop: followed by a call 3bet from the opponent. (the opponent has 1378 chips, 225 chips is 16% of the stack), therefore, I assume his range is 20% of the hands).
Against range: 66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo on the flop: 3 5 K
1. equity: 61%
2. equity in chips: 324
3. Fold equity:39%
4. Fold equity in chips: 207
On the flop, after a check in response to a raise of 350 chips, a call followed, therefore he almost certainly has K. Against his hand with the king of equity JJ from 8.9% to 13%. Need to stop.
 
Collin Moshman

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Is there not some fold equity from the k? Or would this card have to be an A to act as a scare card for us to Cbet on.

I’m presuming we don’t know the villains cards and have him on a range that calls our PF bet, so I would usually cbet here

I am probably wrong here


You're right that there's always fold equity anytime your opponent can hit the fold button. (That's actually an awesome Katie quote from back in the day :D ). Our main goal with fold equity is just to assess qualitatively (i.e. not in an exact way) whether it's likely our opponent will fold to our bet or raise.
 
M

M13A13

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Equity helps a lot when making decisions, whether I call, check or fold.
The only thing I don't like are the tools that help to calculate equity, because in my opinion the game must be all mental of the player.
 
cferdi

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For some reason I find this one of the most difficult topics. I kind of understand on an intellectual level when it is described, but find it difficult in practice, especially live at the tables. Maybe it's my age?

Maybe it's because when you know the hands it's straight forward enough, but when working with a potential range, you don't have time to use something like equilab at the table and, especially at micro stakes, the ranges are often so wide. But this is definitely an area that I need to work on.
 
belizebum

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For some reason I find this one of the most difficult topics. I kind of understand on an intellectual level when it is described, but find it difficult in practice, especially live at the tables. Maybe it's my age?

Maybe it's because when you know the hands it's straight forward enough, but when working with a potential range, you don't have time to use something like equilab at the table and, especially at micro stakes, the ranges are often so wide. But this is definitely an area that I need to work on.

I feel the same way regarding time frame. I guess we just have to have an understanding of similar hands ex: pair against over pair etc.
I have a hard time with it, when you are all in preflop. I mean I understand after seeing both players cards, one has better equity, but at that point, you have no other choices to make. So I see it as 50/50, you are either gonna hit or your opponent is.
 
acidburnfx

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BR
When you are playing online you can apply the percentages through the odds calculator, now when you are playing live you must do this mentally and it is then that the situation becomes the process more laborious after several hours sitting playing.
 
cferdi

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When you are playing online you can apply the percentages through the odds calculator, now when you are playing live you must do this mentally and it is then that the situation becomes the process more laborious after several hours sitting playing.


I don't see how you can when playing online - the time you get to play your hand isn't usually long enough to keep switching back and forth to enter details - (or maybe I need a bigger screen:eek:)
 
K

karmakoumas

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Thank you for these lesson.
Honestly i think that's will be very difficult to estimate equity while playing.
But the think that i learned today and what i always ask myself about is when two players have the same cards, but both have one same color, why the quity of winning is not the same when they are all in.
And with these lesson i understand it : because always there is a chance of flush when they have cards with the same color and then the one with the highest cards color will have more chance to win and that's why we find different equity

Hope flush will always be there for me
:thrasher:
 
Collin Moshman

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For some reason I find this one of the most difficult topics. I kind of understand on an intellectual level when it is described, but find it difficult in practice, especially live at the tables. Maybe it's my age?

Maybe it's because when you know the hands it's straight forward enough, but when working with a potential range, you don't have time to use something like equilab at the table and, especially at micro stakes, the ranges are often so wide. But this is definitely an area that I need to work on.


It's not easy to just know equities when playing live poker, don't worry! Learn the concepts, let them guide your decision-making. But the goal isn't for example to have A6o, put an opponent on a range of top 35%, and say you have 46% equity against that range. Just do your best and practice :)
 
ammje

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Well, another interesting article, thanks Collin.
This article in particular I will have to read it two or three times, because I have always had problems calculating equity.
 
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