Smallest stakes required to make a living?

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Just a curiosity thing. I know people obviously can make money at any level, but generally at what stakes is it considered possible to make a living?

I've been playing 6 tables of $16 turbo STTs, and while running very well but still getting my share of beats (one session got beat out of all 6 games...wee), I've been on an hourly rate that would be more than enough to fully support myself. I never thought $16s would be enough for someone to live off of though.

Also curious about nl and fl cash games too...
 
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jeffred1111

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Live, you at least need to grind 2/4NL or possible 5/10 LHE at a cheap casino to make a living (low rake and free food). And you'll nit it up for long hours in order to get that 8-10$/h.

Online, I'd wager that someone 2-4 tabling 100 6-max or 3/6LHE 6-max could make a frugal to nice living out of poker since competition is better than live but volume of hands is way higher. You also wouldn't put in as much hours as grinding the cheeseburger stakes in the casino. But if you multitable 10/20 limit and are any good (>1ptbb/100 hands), or 400NL, you can live off of poker very easily without worrying too much about working 40-50 hour a week.

I'd say that it depends on lot if you plan to grind full ring or 6max, with 6max being the better option in terms of hourly rate (but worse in terms of swings, variance and liquidity at any moment).
 
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quads

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What do you consider playing poker 8 or more hours a day, especially multi-tabling, a vacation? I'd much rather guarantee my income, along with benefits, with a good job or business. Then I'll use online to play in MTT's and wait for my lucky day. Maybe I'll win a satellite to the wsop, and win that. Then I'll quit my job.

Either your one of a very elite lucky group, and even that group of people are always changing hands, or you believe in one of those theory's you read about how the long run will eventually pay off, because of your great play.

Today you need at least a 100k a year, to live on the average. (nothing fancy)

If everyone was honest, I'll bet you couldn't get one post to say they're actually making a good living playing online. Now come in first or second once a year in the million or similar tournament. That could be different. But even doing that once a year, is rare.

Do yourself a favor, find a good job, and in the meantime use poker for a side job, with the hopes of getting lucky and breaking out.
 
rob5775

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or you believe in one of those theory's you read about how the long run will eventually pay off, because of your great play.

Uh... odds dictate that if you make the correct plays/calls/folds etc, then you will come out ahead in the long run. That is not a "theory", but a fact.

Today you need at least a 100k a year, to live on the average. (nothing fancy)

Where do you live? Beverly Hills? You can live very comfortable under 100k depended on a) family situation or b) what you consider "nothing fancy". I can afford a mortgage, two 30000+ cars, a child, and nice things with less than 100k a year. And that's with no debt.
 
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bw07507

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Today you need at least a 100k a year, to live on the average. (nothing fancy)

Are you serious?? That number is super high

From the national Census:

In 2005, the median annual household income according to the US Census Bureau was determined to be $46,326.[3] The median income per household member (including all working and non-working members above the age of 14) in the year 2003 was $23,535.[4] In the year 2005, there were approximately 113,146,000 households in the United States. 17.23% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $100,000,[5]

Only 17% of households make 100,000 a year let alone individuals
 
KMC1828

KMC1828

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Where do you live? Beverly Hills? You can live very comfortable under 100k depended on a) family situation or b) what you consider "nothing fancy". I can afford a mortgage, two 30000+ cars, a child, and nice things with less than 100k a year. And that's with no debt.

seriously, you do not need 100k a year to live comfortably. i think for a 21 yr old, 50k (pending on where he lives) would probably be plenty fine just for him to live comfortably in my opinion.
 
tenbob

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Just a curiosity thing. I know people obviously can make money at any level, but generally at what stakes is it considered possible to make a living?

I've been playing 6 tables of $16 turbo STTs, and while running very well but still getting my share of beats (one session got beat out of all 6 games...wee), I've been on an hourly rate that would be more than enough to fully support myself. I never thought $16s would be enough for someone to live off of though.

Also curious about nl and fl cash games too...

I really dont think that its possible to make a living playing $16 turbo sit and gos Chuck, I may be wrong, and there are players making good money playing them but i think you need to play (at least) a level higher, or try to progress to the nl ring tables.

Just out of curiousity how long does one of these take to play out ?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Live, you at least need to grind 2/4NL or possible 5/10 LHE at a cheap casino to make a living (low rake and free food). And you'll nit it up for long hours in order to get that 8-10$/h.

Online, I'd wager that someone 2-4 tabling 100 6-max or 3/6LHE 6-max could make a frugal to nice living out of poker since competition is better than live but volume of hands is way higher. You also wouldn't put in as much hours as grinding the cheeseburger stakes in the casino. But if you multitable 10/20 limit and are any good (>1ptbb/100 hands), or 400NL, you can live off of poker very easily without worrying too much about working 40-50 hour a week.

I'd say that it depends on lot if you plan to grind full ring or 6max, with 6max being the better option in terms of hourly rate (but worse in terms of swings, variance and liquidity at any moment).

Just what I was asking for, thanks jeffred. Where did you get these numbers from?

@quads: a) I realize poker is hardly the stablest of incomes, I was just asking about stakes, not seriously considering it. b) 100k?? are you serious? If we're talking about supporting a full family, 4 cars and a house to match then ok, but for a 21 y/o student...

oh, and:
...or you believe in one of those theory's you read about how the long run will eventually pay off, because of your great play.
Umm how else is one supposed to make money in poker, might I ask?
 
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quads

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To live decent, I stand by my 100k. I can't speak for or know what it costs, to live on a farm, or a studio apartment. I live on the east coast of U.S. and 50k won't get a decent living done with the way things are today.

Being a student at the green age of 21, I'm sure your life is not that complicated yet.

So let's make the number just 50k a year. There are millions of people playing online, what percentage do you think make 50k a year????

It's every poker players fantasy to make a living playing poker. And I'm not saying you won't be the next person doing it. But at your age I would concentrate on a real future, and on the back side try to make it with poker.

Most of the famous players we all look up to, and I might add half are mutts, got lucky winning a big tourney usually (millions). There are a couple of them that already were loaded with cash, but most of them just got lucky at the right time. Don't get me wrong here, they can play a good poker game also. It's not all luck. And when you do win one of those huge purse tourneys, don't try and tell me you won it without allot of luck.

Your young with a hopefully bright future, and I wish you nothing but good luck with poker and everything else you do. Just trying to look at the whole reality thing when it comes to poker. Take poker for what it really is. Have a good time with it, maybe you'll make a little or maybe allot of money with it. But I certainly wouldn't want my future's balance banked on the cards being dealt out.

oh, and: Quote:

...or you believe in one of those theory's you read about how the long run will eventually pay off, because of your great play.
Umm how else is one supposed to make money in poker, might I ask?


What determines the long run? How much money do you need to get to the long run? When if ever do you decide to pull the plug? (up or down)

Like I said before, I guess eventually when everyone understands these theory's, which are being printed in every poker book you read today, and learn how to play a good game, it won't be long before everyone will be making a living playing poker online. Who knows maybe they'll even start a Union for online poker players, and we'll even get benefits, paid vacations, sick days, etc.
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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...at your age I would concentrate on a real future, and on the back side try to make it with poker.

What makes you think I'm not? We already established that this isn't something I'm seriously considering. It was a simple question.

I agree with what you're saying - poker is hardly the easiest/most reliable way to make a living - and I don't plan to. fwiw I'm in the process of getting my electrician's license as a long-term career choice, and plan on playing poker on the side for both entertainment and for a secondary income.

As I said right off the bat, this was just something I was curious about.

So let's make the number just 50k a year. There are millions of people playing online, what percentage do you think make 50k a year????

Probably not too many, but then again what percentage actually apply themselves and strive to make a full living out of poker?

What determines the long run? How much money do you need to get to the long run? When if ever do you decide to pull the plug? (up or down)

The long run is technically an infinite amount of games/hands, but the more games/hands you have behind you, the closer you approach your actual winrate. If I play 10K hands in a ring game and am up any significant amount, then I know I'm most probably a long-term winner, and I keep playing. If you come out significantly behind, then either take a step back and look at your game, and if you can't improve, then you winning at poker probably isn't going to happen.

I've played hundreds of STTs, know I'm a long-term winner, and keep playing. Simple as that.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I really dont think that its possible to make a living playing $16 turbo sit and gos Chuck, I may be wrong, and there are players making good money playing them but i think you need to play (at least) a level higher, or try to progress to the nl ring tables.

I didn't think it was...I must just be on a nice (unsustainable) upswing.

Just out of curiousity how long does one of these take to play out ?

About 40mins to an hour.
 
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quads

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I've played hundreds of STTs, know I'm a long-term winner, and keep playing. Simple as that.

Wasn't trying to be sarcastic, just voicing my opinion on your thoughts. You sound like you very much have it together. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

One last question. When is the long run considered over?
 
tenbob

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Lets say 1 hour per 6 games. Running at an ROI of 15%, playing 8 hours per day.

Thats $2.40 per game x 8 hours x 6 tables = $115 per day or $576 per 5 day week. Approx 30K per annum treating it as a full time job. Apart from the mental fatigue, the unsociable hours etc etc, then if its really what you want to do then thats fine.

I suppose playing optimally then its doable.

6 tabling nl$100 FR, and running at 10 big blinds per 100 playng the same amount of hours, you should be able to rack up just about 2,000 hands per day. Making around $200 per day, or 1K per week. Better option imo.
 
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muddawgg

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the quickest way to financial freedom is to not want much and live within your means...people on disability live on 800.00 a month
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Sorry if I get snappy, but it's sometimes hard to distinguish tone or sarcasm through text :/

One last question. When is the long run considered over?

It's never over:

The long run is technically an infinite amount of games/hands, but the more games/hands you have behind you, the closer you approach your actual winrate.

and tb:
Lets say 1 hour per 6 games. Running at an ROI of 15%, playing 8 hours per day.

Thats $2.40 per game x 8 hours x 6 tables = $115 per day or $576 per 5 day week. Approx 30K per annum treating it as a full time job. Apart from the mental fatigue, the unsociable hours etc etc, then if its really what you want to do then thats fine.

I suppose playing optimally then its doable.

6 tabling nl$100 FR, and running at 10 big blinds per 100 playng the same amount of hours, you should be able to rack up just about 2,000 hands per day. Making around $200 per day, or 1K per week. Better option imo.


I think you're basically right. I know the bigwig multitablers can sustain only like %8 ROI over thousands of SNGs, but at the same time the games actually only take 1/2 hour to 40 minutes, so your winrate is still probably close enough.

That's basically what I thought, though. $16s are undoable (without a very nice winrate and consistency) but anything significantly bigger is probably doable.

Thanks for the responses guys.
 
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quads

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the quickest way to financial freedom is to not want much and live within your means...people on disability live on 800.00 a month


Thank god I'm not disabled. But as far as being content with excepting financial freedom by not wanting much, seems to be lacking in motivation.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Thank god I'm not disabled. But as far as being content with excepting financial freedom by not wanting much, seems to be lacking in motivation.

I wouldn't say that's entirely true. Some people just prefer simpler lives without all the bells and whistles.
 
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dde21

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most poeple were i live live on 300 week most jobs pay 7-10 buck an hour and u can do that easly every week online so u can make a living
 
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quads

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No one said you couldn't make a living online, especially if you could live on 15k a year. But if your living on 15k a year, your bankroll should only follow common sense. Unless you saved enough money to have any kind of a bankroll, to honestly give online poker a shot, I would just stick with the micro games, and have some fun.

u can do that easly every week online so u can make a living

If making 300.00 a week is easy, then why not $3,000.00. Like I said before, the online poker union must be close by.
 
Emperor IX

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seriously, you do not need 100k a year to live comfortably. i think for a 21 yr old, 50k (pending on where he lives) would probably be plenty fine just for him to live comfortably in my opinion.

I don't need a mansion, an HDTV in every room, and T1 internet to live comfortably. I live fine on 35k (with four people)
 
Irexes

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If making 300.00 a week is easy, then why not $3,000.00.

Is the answer "because it's more difficult" too simplistic?

Like I said before, the online poker union must be close by.

No idea what you mean by this, but your posts suggest that you don't think anyone is winning online enough to earn a living. There are plenty of people who do, and plenty who don't earn a living but win enough on the side. There are of course many, many more who lose consistently and it's the turnover of these players and fresh money entering the system that keeps it going.
 
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quads

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It's always amusing to read how people will select portions of previous posts, and show it as a quote so it fits into the twist they want to put on it. Thought this was the no spin zone? Never mind that's the O'reily factor.

Irexes, you have no idea what the online poker union meant, because it was relating to a previous post in this same thread. Probably a good idea to read whole thread, to understand the conversation that was taking place before you make sarcastic comments.

And, I never said people aren't making money online, but the percentage is bleak for a living. Not that a select few might be making a living for now.
 
Irexes

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Ok, I wasn't being sarcastic I was making a genuine response as was everyone in this thread.

You've had a lot of really polite responses to your posts but seem intent on creating something out of nothing. Stop now.

Thanks in advance.
 
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quads

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I would expect nothing less then polite responses, considering it's a forum. I also would expect it to be a place to express opinions. If, someone agrees or doesn't, so be it. I don't know what you think I'm trying to create. And don't understand what you want me to stop.
 
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tigertight

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i have no clue about making a living online but i know that at even 2/4 3/6 5/10 no limit hold'em you can grind it out hours a day and make good money if you got good skills :p
 
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