**Official Micro Stakes Madness 5NL,10NL,25NL Focus Group**

[Stu_Ungar]

How do you guys deal with short stackers at a FR table.

Im often finding that im in a great game and then after an hour or so a few leave, and tend to be replaced with shortstackers.

My reluctance to leave is simply that I have stats on most of the players.

The problem that I am finding is that the shortstackers play, understandably, very tight. When I play speculative hands like AT or suited connectors, they often get crushed.

So logic tells me to tighten up and play more premium hands. But this in turn lowers the chances of me playing for stacks against the deep stacks..who are the people I want to be playing against.

So whats the answer.. tighten up or should I just leave?

 

[Jurn8]

How do you guys deal with short stackers at a FR table.

Im often finding that im in a great game and then after an hour or so a few leave, and tend to be replaced with shortstackers.

My reluctance to leave is simply that I have stats on most of the players.

The problem that I am finding is that the shortstackers play, understandably, very tight. When I play speculative hands like AT or suited connectors, they often get crushed.

So logic tells me to tighten up and play more premium hands. But this in turn lowers the chances of me playing for stacks against the deep stacks..who are the people I want to be playing against.

So whats the answer.. tighten up or should I just leave?

Ideally you dont want anymore than 3 at the table, also you dont want any in the 3 seats to your left because of stealing.

Also yes tighten up vs shortys some of them literally just shove AA/KK/AK and others are just bad shoving Ax/PPs so they vary.

I shove sort of 10s+ and AK+ maybe AQ just all depends on the villian tbh

 

[The Shrog]

If anyone is playing 10nl and wants a sweat, I am available most of today and tonight.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Ideally you dont want anymore than 3 at the table, also you dont want any in the 3 seats to your left because of stealing.

Also yes tighten up vs shortys some of them literally just shove AA/KK/AK and others are just bad shoving Ax/PPs so they vary.

I shove sort of 10s+ and AK+ maybe AQ just all depends on the villian tbh

Shortstackers are the bane of FR poker. I play as many deep tables as I can find, even though I only buyin for 100bb, because the min buyin on them is 40bb.

I agree with no more than 3 to a table but I don't mind them on my left but will leave with a shorty on my right. If there is a tight shorty on my left I only have position on this player 1 hand/orbit, so I may not be able to steal quite as often but that's about the only limitation and it's effect on my overall bb/100 is limited. Now if there is a shorty on my right, I have position on this person 8 hands/orbit and their stack can limit me calling bets with position. I can no longer set mine with odds and I can't profitably isolate with a wide range from the button. 3betting these shorties also eliminates my positional advantage because all the $$ go in preflop. These problems can severely impact my winrate, so I leave when I have a SS on my right.

 

[eNTy]

Shortstackers are the bane of FR poker. I play as many deep tables as I can find, even though I only buyin for 100bb, because the min buyin on them is 40bb.

The problem is stars doesn't have 50bb min tables at 25nl and below

 

[WVHillbilly]

The problem is stars doesn't have 50bb min tables at 25nl and below

That sucks. Email support and ask why they don't offer them.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

The ones that are anoying me are buying in for $2 into a $10 game

 

[Jurn8]

sick swings atm played ~9.5k the last 2 days (grinder) up and down like a yo yo!! today was down 2 BIs then up 2 BIs and now im back to evens lol.

Yeah so I am -2 BIs for the previous 2 days which really sucks however I think I am just running bad and not playing the best.

 

[dg1267]

Anyone want to sweat me through a 5k sniper tourney on UB? I'll give you a 25% stake of any winnings. I sattied in and there looks like there will be ~125 in it.

AIM is krokieman if you want to.

Edit: I've got skype and either teamviewer or Mikogo. Tourney is starting now.

 

[eNTy]

That sucks. Email support and ask why they don't offer them.

I could do that but I can guess they will not change it as they want to keep the shortstacks playing underrolled pokahz and generating rake?

 

[The Shrog]

The ones that are anoying me are buying in for $2 into a $10 game

Make sure they're on your right and you're not stealing from them.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Make sure they're on your right and you're not stealing from them.

Both you and Jake have said this but I don't understand it.

Say we're the BTN with a 100bb stack and it's folded to us, we have Jc9h and raise to 3bbs.

What difference does it make if the SB is 20bbs or 100bbs deep? Are you not folding either way if he 3bets to 10bbs?

I don't see how the size of the stack you're stealing from should have any real effect on your steal attempts.

 

[Jurn8]

Both you and Jake have said this but I don't understand it.

Say we're the BTN with a 100bb stack and it's folded to us, we have Jc9h and raise to 3bbs.

What difference does it make if the SB is 20bbs or 100bbs deep? Are you not folding either way if he 3bets to 10bbs?

I don't see how the size of the stack you're stealing from should have any real effect on your steal attempts.

Shortys are more likely to shove with a wider range than people 3betting you with 100BBs.

therefore if you have J9o im not stacking this vs a shorty but wouldnt call a 3bet. However if you have say AJ I probs will call a 3bet from a 100BB but its not going to be good enough to call a shove from a shorty.

Just my opinion

 

[WVHillbilly]

Shortys are more likely to shove with a wider range than people 3betting you with 100BBs.

therefore if you have J9o im not stacking this vs a shorty but wouldnt call a 3bet. However if you have say AJ I probs will call a 3bet from a 100BB but its not going to be good enough to call a shove from a shorty.

Just my opinion

You can't have it both ways, Jake. Either Shorties aren't shoving a wide range or AJ is good enough to call a 3bet shove from them because they have a wide range.

FWIW I'm almost never calling a 3bet with AJ against a full stacked player, but I'll damn sure call a wide ranged shorty's shove with it.

 

[The Shrog]

FWIW I'm almost never calling a 3bet with AJ against a full stacked player, but I'll damn sure call a wide ranged shorty's shove with it.

For the most part, these shortys are complete nits and only playing AA/KK/QQ/JJ/(1010)/AK/AQ...why would we want to get into it with them with AJ?

 

[S93]

For the most part, these shortys are complete nits and only playing AA/KK/QQ/JJ/(1010)/AK/AQ...why would we want to get into it with them with AJ?

If there nits why dont you whant them to your left so u can steal from them?
VW is simply pointing out u cant have it both ways,either there nits and there for profitable to steal from or there shoving wide ranges and are there for profitable to call light.
Both scenerios mean they would be good to have on your left imo....

 

[WVHillbilly]

For the most part, these shortys are complete nits and only playing AA/KK/QQ/JJ/(1010)/AK/AQ...why would we want to get into it with them with AJ?

Don't you see that's exactly my point. You CAN steal from the nitty shortys all day and fold when they do play back at you without a real hand. Both you and Jake seemed to insinuate that you don't want to be stealing from nitty short stackers when, if their range for playing back is as strong as you're saying, you should be able to rob them blind.

I said that if a shorty has a wide range for 3betting steal attempts I'll snapcall with AJ. If his range is narrow, like you say, it's an easy fold (as is AQ).

So again, why don't you want to steal from these guys?

 

[orangepeeleo]

My strategy with these guys just leans towards their vpip and past history really, for example, villain has vpip of 40 and has been seen pushing his stack about to steal from limpers and using it as a big all in 3 bet to a raiser, i snap call or raise to isolate him with 1010+ and AK, if the villain is a nitty shortie and is sat there with a vpip of say 9 then i'm only calling with KK+

I agree that they can be stolen from though, i think its easier to steal from them because if they 3-bet all in then you can easily get away from the hand, whereas a tight player on your left 3-bets you it can mean a few different things that put you in an awkward pot, he's either got a hand or has noticed that your stealing a lot and is playing back at you, shorties dont do this so it's easier to steal from them imo

As long as there isn't a table full of them i don't see the problem, they make your decision pf a lot easier and worst comes to worst your still going to see 5 cards, theyre easy to trap too as they always like the big all in bluffs

 

[The Shrog]

Don't you see that's exactly my point. You CAN steal from the nitty shortys all day and fold when they do play back at you without a real hand. Both you and Jake seemed to insinuate that you don't want to be stealing from nitty short stackers when, if their range for playing back is as strong as you're saying, you should be able to rob them blind.

Alright, WV...this makes sense. Appreciate the feedback..wasn't trying to battle you or anything, just was stating why I THOUGHT I was playing them the way I was. Perhaps it makes more sense to be stealing from players who will only be playing back at you with premiums..

 

[WVHillbilly]

Alright, WV...this makes sense. Appreciate the feedback..wasn't trying to battle you or anything, just was stating why I THOUGHT I was playing them the way I was. Perhaps it makes more sense to be stealing from players who will only be playing back at you with premiums..

No "battle" intended. It's just that I want to help you guys understand that stealing from people who will only play back at you with a strong range is great. You can do it with ATC and show a profit.

Stealing from people who will play back at you with ATC is also great as long as you tighten up your stealing range and are willing to call their 3bet lighter.

Obviously the best people to steal from are those who just call your preflop bet and give up every time they don't improve on the flop.

In any case though stack size really makes very little to no difference to me when I'm stealing.

 

[The Shrog]

Then, WV, would you recommend sitting with shortys to your immediate left, with the intent of stealing them often with ATC?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Then, WV, would you recommend sitting with shortys to your immediate left, with the intent of stealing them often with ATC?

I'd recommend never sitting with shortys but when I have to I want the tight shortstackers on my left. Ideally you want to be one seat to the left of the worst player with a full stack and I always want full stacks to my right (at least 2 seats) because these are the players I'll have position on the most often. In other words try to get the best position on the worst player at the table and the $$ will flow to you.

 

[bob_tiger]

I wanted to address your guys discussion about shortstackers. You guys are right short stackers are usually nits, or passive laggy donks who are scared and want to minimize their loses. There are also pro short stackers who understand when to shove with complete air and when to wait, I'm pretty sure there aren't any pro short stackers at 10nl lol. I personally hate shortstackers to my left and let me explain why.

While stealing increases our winrate some, stealing blinds is not where we make most of our money, its when we play other big stacks in position and manipulate them to play back at us and make mistakes so we take their stack. So when we have nit short stackers in blinds and we are on button, we only get their blinds, and when we do have a hand and they shove, we don't win a full stack, assuming these short stackers don't know how to exploit our button raises. As for the passive laggy shortstackers, we sorta just value bet our strong hands and give up on our junk and perhaps I would tighten up my stealing range from the button if a guy like this is in the blinds or leave the table. As for dealing with the pro shortstackers, there are different strategies but I won't get into them since thats a totally differnt topic and there aren't any until like 100nl+. Anyways those are my thoughts and I personally like having aggro tags to my left in blinds because I love it when they get pissed with me raising every hand and start playing back and make mistakes.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Does anyone know where the tick box is in pokerstars to prevent all players seeing that you have AA preflop?

The last 6 or 7 times I have been dealt AA and made a standard 3xBB raise, everyone has folded.. and you should see some of the cards these guys play!! So I must have some option ticked which is alerting them to my preflop AA holdings!!

 

[eNTy]

Does anyone know where the tick box is in PokerStars to prevent all players seeing that you have AA preflop?

The last 6 or 7 times I have been dealt AA and made a standard 3xBB raise, everyone has folded.. and you should see some of the cards these guys play!! So I must have some option ticked which is alerting them to my preflop AA holdings!!

You have to email support for that. Ask them to turn your doomswitch off very nicely and you should be alright.