Steveg1976
...
Silver Level
That box is right under your names in players notes and says "NIT" or in some cases "Super Nit".
Sounds like you don't steal much if the micro players are getting that good of a read on you
That box is right under your names in players notes and says "NIT" or in some cases "Super Nit".
Sounds like you don't steal much if the micro players are getting that good of a read on you
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
That box is right under your names in players notes and says "NIT" or in some cases "Super Nit".
Sounds like you don't steal much if the micro players are getting that good of a read on you
LOL its quite the opposite mate, Ill be stealing left right and centre.. betting my made hands big and watching my stack go up and up... (i do take some hits.. but I try not to tilt and just build it back)
Anyway.. ill look over at my own stats and damn.. Id better tighten up a bit and get those stats down a bit!! The CC boys will laugh if i tell them how loose im playing
P
PokerJoeAAAA
Rock Star
Silver Level
it sounds like you might be playing to tight, or you may only be raising with top hands. you might want to try some 3xBB raise and show down some junk or drawing hands, or just show the mucked hand a couple of times.
"you have to give action to get action"
"you have to give action to get action"
eNTy
Legend
Silver Level
Read the post above yours.
Stick66
Legend
Silver Level
I think you almost CAN have it both ways, sort of.
I agree that most shorties are nits PREFLOP. But I also think since they are even shorter post-flop, their range gets wider after the flop. So to combat this, you use position and pot-control on them post-flop. Do something like flat call their preflop raise with a monster. Then let them C-bet and you raise them to put them to a decision for their whole stack. That will leave them looking at their puny stack and they'll either shove with crap or fold their failed C-bet bluff. You can even try this with a mediocre hand if you hit the flop. 99% of the time, shorties have NO post-flop game since they have such a tiny post-flop stack to work with.
If you don't hit a good flop against them after you've flatted their PF raise, just fold. Give 'em your 3-4 BBs and load up again. The +EV here is that they are more likely to stack off than bigger stacks. It's easier to get them in a position where they can't turn back. I love when they shove a flopped flush draw and I bust them with an underpair when they don't hit. If you think about it, they don't hit more times than they do hit.
Trust me. Shorties are looser post-flop, so battle them then. Not so much preflop.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
I wanted to address your guys discussion about shortstackers. You guys are right short stackers are usually nits, or passive laggy donks who are scared and want to minimize their loses. There are also pro short stackers who understand when to shove with complete air and when to wait, I'm pretty sure there aren't any pro short stackers at 10nl lol. I personally hate shortstackers to my left and let me explain why.
While stealing increases our winrate some, stealing blinds is not where we make most of our money, its when we play other big stacks in position and manipulate them to play back at us and make mistakes so we take their stack. So when we have nit short stackers in blinds and we are on button, we only get their blinds, and when we do have a hand and they shove, we don't win a full stack, assuming these short stackers don't know how to exploit our button raises. As for the passive laggy shortstackers, we sorta just value bet our strong hands and give up on our junk and perhaps I would tighten up my stealing range from the button if a guy like this is in the blinds or leave the table. As for dealing with the pro shortstackers, there are different strategies but I won't get into them since thats a totally differnt topic and there aren't any until like 100nl+. Anyways those are my thoughts and I personally like having aggro tags to my left in blinds because I love it when they get pissed with me raising every hand and start playing back and make mistakes.
I agree completely and that's why having a shorty on my immediate left is not a problem. I'll only have position on him for 1 hand / revolution (when I'm on the BTN). Every other hand he has position. His positional advantage is never fully utilized because his short stack negates it. So you'd rather have a full stacked player playing 8 of 9 hands with position on you than a 20bb short stack?
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Completely agree - while they're total nits pf, I can't believe what the shorties show up with after they shove the flop from a pf flat call (say BB)...
Seriously, I see them showing up with top pair medium kicker and second pair regularly, they're not even showing down whiffed draws... I think they simply feel pot committed, or they think they've got FE because they're so tight normally...
Jagsti
I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
I think the problem with having shorty's (ie 20bb's or less) on your left is that it hinders your stealing attempts greatly. It's fine if there nitty, but anything but nitty causes problems if we're stealing/iso'ng/squeezing from late position a lot. I mostly prefer to have them on my right if I'm being honest.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
I honestly figured that Jake had learned this from you Jay.
I still don't get why you'd want shortys on you left, but to each his own I guess.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
While this is a great strategy to use, I honestly think if regs are doing this they have a hand. At the micros, no one is playing back at you with air ever, especially at FR. Even at 200-400nl not many regs are good enough to do that. There are very few I have played against that I know are capable of this and believe me you'll know they're doing it. They're also the ones that probably 3-bet around 9%, steal a ton, and have stats comparable to 23/21. If this doesn't describe them they probably just have a hand.
Or a second option is if they are total fish sometimes their thought process goes like this:
"I have 2nd pair, people cbet all the time I don't know if I'm good or not. I'll put in a raise for information to see if I'm good."
This is a horrible thought process in general but actually works somewhat against us since we have air in our range so often. They turn their hand into a bluff and it's probably a profitable bluff even though they think they're betting "for information".
Anyway, if you do meet such a person who for whatever reason is raising you a ton when you cbet dry flops, most of the times you can cbet less. Just cbet dry flops when you have a hand like TP, and ifi they really are raising you light be prepared to stack it. Or if you're feeling really ballsy and you think they have total air a lot of the time you can 3-bet the flop.
BUT: I would bet that other than the random fish raising "for information", no regs are thinking at that level yet. Most FR players play their own hands and maybe look at the board a little bit. They don't think about the fact that your range is wide and you cbet dry flops a lot. They think "oops, I missed the flop, time to fold". And this is not just at the micros, but up to even at least 100nl and as I mentioned a select few 200-400nl regs most likely do it.
Say we know he's 3-betting us light. We can either flat in position or 4-bet light against a 100 BB stack. When the 20 BB stack puts his stack in we can't do anything. Even though his range is super-wide, our J9 doesn't even beat a random hand, so we have to fold. But if a 100 BB stack plays back super-wide, we have a lot more options.
Of course WV is right against nit shortstackers, but the good ones are the ones who will steal and 3-bet shove very wide, and those are a pain to deal with on your left, and very fun to play against when they're on your right because essentially you can use their strategy against them and shove light on them. Of course then if they're good they'll adjust and call light (as you should if you have a solid shortstack on your left). Had one call my shove with KQ (and he was right
).And Stu_Unger I promise not to laugh what are your preflop stats? Just curious.
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Makes perfect sense, thanks! I don't think I've seen anyone at 25NL FR with those stats - and they'd pretty much have to have stats that looked like that for them to be doing this. I'm probably just running into loose players on my left connecting with some part of a terrible flop...
Since this made me so paranoid, I was thinking about trying gobsmacked1's ideas in a couple of sessions this weekend...
bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
What I meant was, I rather have a an ABC TAG with a full stack because I don't mind playing them out of position because they are easy to play against and I will be playing hands like 56 and 78 etc etc, that play well against their range, and while the stealing concept applies to them too, meaning we can steal from them too, but we can make a lot more off these guys getting frustrated and making mistakes when we do actually have a hand, its all about being one step ahead of the other guy. And Yes I rather have a table full of 100bb+ stacks rather than havin a table with few shortstackers, because like I mentioned stealing is small portion of our winning, we make money when we people make mistakes against us and we exploit them.
Jurn8
Legend
Silver Level
Dont you have to tighten up your stealing from say the CO + HJ though if shortys are in the blinds.
Axs I am stealing against tight blinds from the HJ + say you have A2s you steal all other villians fold and then shorty just shoves over you + you have to fold. I think they are just annoying when they 3bet shove over your steals etc I prefer not to have them in 3 seats to my left, just makes my life alot easier
Axs I am stealing against tight blinds from the HJ + say you have A2s you steal all other villians fold and then shorty just shoves over you + you have to fold. I think they are just annoying when they 3bet shove over your steals etc I prefer not to have them in 3 seats to my left, just makes my life alot easier
O
orangepeeleo
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I'm at 5nl just now and I've recently started to expand how i play a bit by playing back at some of the tighter guys on the table but as yet the only ones i really play back at with confidence are the ones with high Attempt-Stl% when i'm in the blinds, i dont play back at them with total air but if i get say K10 or 89s in the sb and someone with a 80-100% stl stat open-raises on the btn then i've started to 3bet them and take down a fair few pots pf.
Are we literally just looking at cbet% and AF when a flop comes to decide whether to play back against the cbetter?? I don't get into this situation often because i'm playing simple poker at the minute and generally if i've got a hand i wanna play and position on a pf raiser i'm gonna be coming in raising and go to the flop as the aggressor, unless i've got a pp and the villain has a big enough stack for me to try and hit my set. What do you look for if your oop and call a pf raiser? What stats/board are we looking at to decide whether to 3bet them or float??
One general example of this would be, villain who's 200bb deep raises 4xbb in mp, i call with in the bb with 77, this might even be a terrible play but i would make a call looking to hit a set or fold, the flop comes 2,5,9 rainbow, i check and the villain puts out a 3/4 pot cbet, this being quite a dry board what do we look for in his stats to play back?? now in some of the examples in harrington on cash he says to always remember why you came into the hand, and in this case my reasoning was to hit a set, and in some examples that i remember he has said to fold pp's on the flop if you don't hit your set because thats why you came in and it didnt work out.
This might be a really dumb question and i've tried to word it as best i can but at the minute my fold to cbet % is 59, saying that, is this about right?? given that people will miss the flop 1/3 of the time this says i'm not folding 2/3's of the time..... dammit i might just have wrote out a whole question about something my stats say i'm not having problems with
sorry, but still, any advice on this topic would be appreciated
O
orangepeeleo
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I was thinking the same was happening to me but i noticed the other day that i've actually made a lot from AA and infact i've only made more money (like 30c) from AKo, it was all in my mind apparently lol
bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
I'm at 5nl just now and I've recently started to expand how i play a bit by playing back at some of the tighter guys on the table but as yet the only ones i really play back at with confidence are the ones with high Attempt-Stl% when i'm in the blinds, i dont play back at them with total air but if i get say K10 or 89s in the sb and someone with a 80-100% stl stat open-raises on the btn then i've started to 3bet them and take down a fair few pots pf.
Alright, When you decide to 3-bet someone, Like you said you have to look at their steal attempt %, but also you want to know what kind of player you are 3-betting, is he passive/aggresive, because like you said in your post there is always a reason for 3-betting and I would also look at their fold to 3 bet stat and if its really high I just give them hell and raise with even my rags and keep doing it to tilt them, then when people get frustrated with you say the 4th-5th time you 3bet them, they either stop raising and just wait for monsters to raise or they get frustrated and start 4-betting you, then you can 3-bet your big hands for value and flat with hands that play well and are disguised, like 89s, if you hit say 5 6 7, the villain will have a hard time putting you on a hand and is probably so frustrated that will probably try to outplay with like A high or something junky, because when people are tilting they don't think as well when they are not tilting.
As for 3-betting with hands like KT or perhaps something like a7, that are hard to play against aggro players and against passive players, you can just value town them and until they show some strength you can just bet bet bet. So when you 3-bet those hands ask yourself, is this guy good enough post flop to get me off a better hand and you are turning your hand into a bluff and just get some aggresive dynamic preflop until this person gets frustrated with you and starts playing back like I already mentioned, or is he just a passive fish and I'm 3betting this for value, and then you can basically value town them or give up if they show some heat because passive players become aggresive only when they have a hand. At this level you don't need to balance your ranges so I won't get into that.
Are we literally just looking at cbet% and AF when a flop comes to decide whether to play back against the cbetter??
I don't get into this situation often because i'm playing simple poker at the minute and generally if i've got a hand i wanna play and position on a pf raiser i'm gonna be coming in raising and go to the flop as the aggressor, unless i've got a pp and the villain has a big enough stack for me to try and hit my set. What do you look for if your oop and call a pf raiser? What stats/board are we looking at to decide whether to 3bet them or float??
Ok for the first question, basically yes. I'm not sure what you mean by "what do you look for" but basically I'm looking at their c-bet %, their vpip/pf (lol don't remember if thats correct abreviation, but preflop raise just in case its wrong). And then on flop I decide what I want to do and I will talk about the hand example you gave and I got another one. I'm assuming your last question is for the flop and I'm also assuming that you mean raise their c-bet, check raise, like I said there is always a reason, are we trying to get them off air with our air? are we trying to get more money in the pot? as for the float, do we have showdown value and just want to get to showdown cheaply, or are we waiting to turn our air into a bluff on the turn? Those are the questions you want to ask yourself and here is my example.
Say you are holding umm AQ for example, you been 3-betting this guy like crazy preflop and now you decide to throw him off by flatting, and say flop comes Q K 2 rainbow, well here the way I would play it, is check and let the villian bet his huge range assuming he is not a nit, and this is where I would just call because I don't want to turn my hand into a bluff because I have showdown value, and I also don't want to fold out worse hands, and then on the turn, I would probably check once more, and then if villain bets again I try to figure out if he is good enough to bet air one more time, is he betting the K or is he betting a weaker Q, you can usually figure this out by how aggresive people are and its usually a good idea to take notes on people when they end up in show down with like mid pair type hands and see how they played it, also its good to take notes on how people play their draws, are they aggresive with them or do they just call hoping to hit and give when they don't. But then say villain checks back, then I can go for thin value on the river and perhaps bet like half of pot, maybe slightly less to get villain to call with weaker Qs or some other weak hand because in reality everyone tries to make "hero" calls and calls way too much.
One general example of this would be, villain who's 200bb deep raises 4xbb in mp, i call with in the bb with 77, this might even be a terrible play but i would make a call looking to hit a set or fold, the flop comes 2,5,9 rainbow, i check and the villain puts out a 3/4 pot cbet, this being quite a dry board what do we look for in his stats to play back?? now in some of the examples in harrington on cash he says to always remember why you came into the hand, and in this case my reasoning was to hit a set, and in some examples that i remember he has said to fold pp's on the flop if you don't hit your set because thats why you came in and it didnt work out.
I basically pretty much covered this question, but basically you want to figure out what you want to do with your hand, so if the villain is a decent TAG, I would probably turn my hand into a bluff and try to take it down here, because even some TAG players C-bet too much sometimes, which is not bad if people keep folding, like even I will keep raising/isolating limpers and just c-bet the hell out of them until they start giving me a reason not to, but say this guy is a calling station and would probably call our raise with overcards, I would probably flat and evaluate the turn, I mean I'm not exactly sure how people "think" at this level but I would say majority of TAG players have this thought process, I raised now I have to c-bet because pros say so and people don't hit their hand often, then you flat, then they think oh shit he actually has a hand, I will just let it go and you can usually take it away from them, where as at higher levels, people think he knows I'm c-betting wide range, so I have to bet one more time to try and get him off his hand, and the better TAG players take it to the next level and triple barrel, but thats a whole different story and I could talk for hours about this
This might be a really dumb question and i've tried to word it as best i can but at the minute my fold to cbet % is 59, saying that, is this about right?? given that people will miss the flop 1/3 of the time this says i'm not folding 2/3's of the time..... dammit i might just have wrote out a whole question about something my stats say i'm not having problems with
I think perhaps that's a tad bit high, I'm not a big stat freak, but you are either playing too many hands and giving up too easily, or you are not going to showdown often enough and are folding better hands too often. Wait a second you are saying you fold 59% of the time to c-bets, and people only hit 1/3 of the time thats 33%, and you are folding slightly less 2/3 of the time, so yea I think you need to work on your post flop game, or perhaps even take a look at your preflop game if you are playing too many hands, but my guess would be you are folding better hands too often.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Instead of me answering, I have a question for you. Why would you fold A2s against a shorty? Would you do it against someone 100 BBs deep? Your answer should be that it depends, what does it depend on?
Doing it as a bluff the stats I look at are att. to steal and their fold to 3-bet. The higher either of those stats are, the more likely I am to 3-bet.
Flop texture is generally way more important than either of these. It's all player dependent, but think about the hands he has and how many of them hit or miss the flop. And yes cbet% matters when it's very high and very low. If a J52r flop comes and someone who raises a lot of hands preflop and cbet% of 90% cbets, they almost never have a hand. You can then float or C/R if you're oop a good amount. You don't want to overdo it though or else they will pick up on it and start re-raising your flop raise or double or even triple barreling at you.
Generally the same as above. The problem is we can't float oop so we generally have to C/R if we want to play back and that gets expensive. Plus we're basically doing it blindly whereas a float gives us much more information. That's why playing in position is great and we should avoid playing oop as much as possible, but obviously sometimes we'll find ourselves oop. I would definitely play back less but I would use the same criteria as above to determine whether to play back and C/R the flop.
Generally I don't like set mining oop, but with a hand like 77 and 200 BBs deep, I think calling here is probably fine.
In this spot I would probably consider just flat calling the cbet. If we raise we turn our hand into a bluff, and we are certainly ahead of his range unless he cbets like less than 30% or w/e. Most people will cbet that flop close to 100% of the time because it's so dry and you're so unlikely to have hit it.
The thing is throughout the hand you get more information. For example if someone bets flop and you call with 55 on a 972r flop with the intention of folding the turn if he bets then 5 hits turn and he bets, you're not going to fold are you? I think his point is relevant, especially when players get attached to hands when unders hit flop (ie 99 on 852 flop when they flat preflop, remember TT+ is still all in villain's range). What you want to do though is think about the hands that are in villain's range. If there are a lot and you are ahead of most of them, you should usually call or raise. If the guy never cbets in your example, you are likely behind when he does, so you can fold. If he cbets 100% you can probably raise just to protect your hand because he has a lot of hands with overs.
This might be a really dumb question and i've tried to word it as best i can but at the minute my fold to cbet % is 59, saying that, is this about right?? given that people will miss the flop 1/3 of the time this says i'm not folding 2/3's of the time..... dammit i might just have wrote out a whole question about something my stats say i'm not having problems with
It depends how you're playing. The more you call with hands like 55 hoping to hit your set (which is fine if they'll pay you off when you hit, but for that reason if they pay you when you hit you don't want to be bluffing it generally), the higher that number should be. fwiw my flop fold vs. cbet is 40.1% for the month. But that's because the types of hands I'm flatting are hands such as 99-QQ, KQ, AJ, and in position the occaisional hands like TJs.
eNTy
Legend
Silver Level
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Posted this in the Feb. chat thread as well but in case you don't check that thread out:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/pick-seat-143793/
Stop by and vote.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/pick-seat-143793/
Stop by and vote.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Quick answer is that right now you have to filter for that day and then see it in the General Tab or whatever. The next beta that's due within the next few days is supposed to have a details tab like PT2 did where you can just double-click a session (or a table) and get those stats.
dg1267
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
...or, you can dump PT3 and buy HEM! Better, imo!