The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

[birdman666]

That’s great to hear, awesome work!

For Equilab, some sites like Stars do prohibit you from using them while you play. If you have Stars open and you’re using Equilab, a warning message will pop up. So this program is best used just for study

I believe Virtual Box would do the trick if you really want to use Equilab during game.

 

[imnoobpoker]

Thank you for day 10 and the wise takeaways for today!
Many thanks for all the lessons until day 10.

 

[imnoobpoker]

Please mod, can you edit my post? Want to add something:

After today's lesson I came in this spot and I used the lesson of today! So happy that I did what the video learned me:

Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN: 114 BB
SB: 107.5 BB
BB: 56 BB
Hero (UTG): 24.5 BB
MP: 93.5 BB
CO: 57 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:heart: J:heart:

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12 BB, 4 players) Q:club: 9:heart: 4:spade:
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 7.5 BB, MP calls 7.5 BB, SB calls 7.5 BB, BB raises to 53 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 14 BB and is all-in, MP raises to 90.5 BB and is all-in, fold

Turn: (147 BB, 3 players) T:spade:

River: (147 BB, 3 players) 3:club:

BB shows A:spade: Q:heart: (One Pair, Queens)

Main Pot [84 BB]: (Pre 34%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot#1 [63 BB]: (Pre 44%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)

Hero shows K:heart: J:heart: (Straight, King High)

Main Pot [84 BB]: (Pre 33%, Flop 17%, Turn 79%)

MP shows 9:spade: 9:club: (Three of a Kind, Nines)

Main Pot [84 BB]: (Pre 33%, Flop 81%, Turn 21%)
Side Pot#1 [63 BB]: (Pre 56%, Flop 98%, Turn 100%)

Hero wins 79 BB
MP wins 59 BB

Or was this just luck? Thank you for the lessons.

 

[Collin Moshman]

I believe Virtual Box would do the trick if you really want to use Equilab during game.

I'm sure you're right, but it's still breaking the site TOS. So that would give you an unfair advantage over other players and risk your entire account. Definitely not worth it!

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks Imnoob In this hand, I would suggest checking this flop most of the time against three opponents and the decision to get it in is a bit loose, but you decide to gamble here and hit a great card which is a fun part of poker. Nice hand!

 

[birdman666]

I'm sure you're right, but it's still breaking the site TOS. So that would give you an unfair advantage over other players and risk your entire account. Definitely not worth it!

Actually I believe Equilab is not worth at all during game, it takes a lot of time just for one ICM computation, the player loses concentration typing the numbers, and I dont believe it makes such a big difference.
HUDs on the other hand pose a much greater threat to recreational players, not to mention that they are used by professional teams and also commercially (sharkscope, Pokerprolabs, etc), which means a player is already "mapped" even by opponents who have never played against him. And it is extremely simple to nullify HUDs, one only needs to allow players to change their nicknames whenever they want. I believe poker casinos don't do that because they take a lot of profit from the HUD business. Therefore, I don't really understand pokerstars aversion to charts, ICM calculators, etc, when they allow HUDs. Well actually I do, unlike HUDs, these non-tracking software are not lucrative to poker casinos. Thats why they are forbbiden.
And of course theres also those players that use charts and forbidden software in a separated computer so they do not get caught. You can also easily program an ICM calculator in Python or Matlab. Anyone who really wants to use forbidden software without getting caught, will do for sure. And that guy is obviously not the recreational player. Thats why I believe these ban policies by pokerstars will ultimately hurt the same players they claim they want to protect.

 

[Collin Moshman]

I definitely hear what you're saying. For me, I think the ban on having ICM calculators up is reasonable given that they suggest specific decisions. I.e. You input the situation and the software outputs a suggested action. Whereas for Equilab, all you're getting is % equities -- it's not at all clear how to translate these to a raise/call/fold/etc. So I agree with you that the Equilab ban (for having it up while actually playing) probably doesn't accomplish much.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Quiz

1. 12 outs: flush and 7's
2. 24ish %
3. bet

 

[Collin Moshman]

1. 12 outs: flush and 7's
2. 24ish %
3. bet

I'm enjoying reading your quiz replies OneCoolHand, great work progressing through the course!

 

[P1R35]

Hi Collin.
What’s your thoughts on playing draws as a cold caller IP (in position) vs OOP?

The same principles apply? Or you play them differently IP? Like mostly calling them to take the advantage of being in position, we see what Villain does before us etc ?

How you decide if you wanna raise with you draws IP? It’s as always depends how much showdown value we have ? ( calling Ah FD, raising 8h FD etc?).

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hi Collin.
What’s your thoughts on playing draws as a cold caller IP (in position) vs OOP?

The same principles apply? Or you play them differently IP? Like mostly calling them to take the advantage of being in position, we see what Villain does before us etc ?

How you decide if you wanna raise with you draws IP? It’s as always depends how much showdown value we have ? ( calling Ah FD, raising 8h FD etc?).

Play the draws more aggressively OOP. I’m definitely more inclined to bet when checking gives the action and lead to my opponent.

In a lot of spots it doesn’t matter, and I’ll bet a combo draw without showdown value either way. But if it’s close, I’ll bet OOP and take the free card IP.

Showdown value is usually the biggest concern but number of opponents, how aggro they are, whether stacks are good for shoving, ICM state, and other factors influence too.

Nice question + hope that helps!

 

[P1R35]

Thanks for reply.

I was thinking about spot like this:

LJ 50bb opened 2.5x, Hero flats on the BU XXs.

Flop Qh7s5s
Villain CBet 40%.

What flush draw you prefer to only call IP and what raise ?

Let’s say we have hands like 89s+, T8s+, suited broadways, A2-AJs.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks for reply.

I was thinking about spot like this:

LJ 50bb opened 2.5x, Hero flats on the BU XXs.

Flop Qh7s5s
Villain CBet 40%.

What flush draw you prefer to only call IP and what raise ?

Let’s say we have hands like 89s+, T8s+, suited broadways, A2-AJs.

It depends of course, but roughly speaking I'd be looking to flat king-high and ace-high flush draws here most of the time and be raising the lower ones. QsTs I'd flat. 9s8s I'd raise. AsJs I'd flat.

 

[Pichman189]

It depends of course, but roughly speaking I'd be looking to flat king-high and ace-high flush draws here most of the time and be raising the lower ones. QsTs I'd flat. 9s8s I'd raise. AsJs I'd flat.

when I started to master the art of bluffing, I began to understand that having a draw on my hands is a great opportunity to take the pot, especially if I have a straight draw flush draw and straight flush draw at the same time)) especially right after the flop

 

[Edgerik]

Excellent explanation of the analyzed hands, thanks for the video and the course.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Excellent explanation of the analyzed hands, thanks for the video and the course.

Very glad to hear this, Edgerik! Looks like you’re doing an awesome job progressing through the course!

 

[David macdonald]

The odds were only counting the draws to the best hand avoiding overcard outs which is interesting and more correct.

 

[Goku55]

I'm not sure if it's because I'm using a phone but I can't see the link for the course. Can someone help my out and copy it and paste it in a reply.

 

[Collin Moshman]

I'm not sure if it's because I'm using a phone but I can't see the link for the course. Can someone help my out and copy it and paste it in a reply.

Here you go:

https://www.cardschat.com/become-a-winning-poker-player/

Enjoy!

 

[henriquemaduro]

In hand 10.2, when calculating implied odds, why we dont add what we will bet after the 400? We just add what villains maybe bet.

 

[barbados]

The half-bluff was a revelation to me... hmm... who would have thought...

 

[Oranaro]

There we go, counting outs, odds and implied odds to decide on how to play draws. Thank you very much for the lesson! The book is awesome too, it's easy to understand (but still some work should be done from our side, the training). I recommand for learners to take random hands with flop and turn draws and try to find the implied odds. At first it's a slow process but as we do that it becomes quicker.

 

[mariussica88]

Finished day 10...20 to go

Had to watch this video 3 times to properly understand how to correctly play draws. I still have to put all this in practice, it's harder then it looks . GG on this course. I enjoy it a lot.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

Day 10 The Key To Playing Draws

Emphasis on Semi Bluffs

Tidbits
"Semi Bluffing-a bet when you have a draw, you have something to fall back on"

You have to look at the odds chart in the E Book to understand what Collin is talking about throughout the video lesson unless you know it off the top of your head.

"If you think future betting will not improve your odds of winning then you should fold." He gives the low flush draw as an example.

Reasons to Play Draws More Passively- Collin doesn't like to play draws passively. Gives some reasons when play draws passively. Showdown value.

I can't play hands like this. I'll look at what they're trying to do and what I know from watching them and go from there. This is another example of how math can send you to the rail in a hurry. The other one was using odds to call where folks can give you the right price to give your chips away as they value bet you to death.

I DISAGREE WITH THIS KQ EXAMPLE.
From what I see playing beginners is that they play the draws way too hard when they don't need to. WAY TOO HARD. And when Collin says you have 16% of improving then you should jam KQ lol I START CRINGING. I'm not a fan of this play but I get his reasoning because you're going to get called if they have the ace and doing that with just the gut shot isn't that great. Collin is putting them to a decision to go all in and if they have it then they will and the best thing is if he loses the pot is he only goes back to the avg amount of the chip stacks at the table but if he takes down the 1580 pot then he to a commanding 3rd place in chips at the table. It seems like something out of his SNG book.

So I get it but when they're that short the reason why they call a hand is because they have an ace or a pair so I would go back to what you know about your opponent's playing tendencies.

The other part I can see is since you've got KQ then they probably don't have a big ace kicker like a K or Q if they have and ace so they might factor that into their decision of folding an Ace but if they didn't want to play a weak ace kicker and hit the board then they shouldn't have played it in the beginning, lol. Yeah and there are some folks that will slow play AK AQ here and there instead of jamming preflop, go figure, to see if the they hit the flop. So I see Collin's thinking here but I'm not a fan of it.

Really like the commentary on the T9s example following the KQ. The later T9s example is ok. Like the showdown value of the J7 example. I don't like the AJ example before the review questions, it makes little sense to me to toss your money in there when you have a lot more poker to play and you're going on a coin toss or less when you don't need too.

I don't like math and this type of game doesn't match my style but I need to be aware of it. Another good lesson because it got me to think about hands.

 

[Chase]

I branched off for a bit to look at the page that Collin recommended called poker odds for Dummies: https://www.cardschat.com/odds-for-dummies.php

This is a well written, valuable resource that I've bookmarked in a couple of places. Glad I checked it out.