The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

[gabrielcsgo93]

I think dont have a key but you can icrease your chances!

 

[Collin Moshman]

So in this lesson I learned should play my draw cards betting or raising , get a default agressively. Against tight players I should just call with a flush or straight draw since the vilain didn't often have the so strong hand defending. Already at the Pot multiway is good I have a gutshot straight draw on the button or if when there more that four players had checked or showed up weakness, semi-bluff
even your weakest draws or when dosen't shearched to protect his hand, I can hit and try get the nuts to win the pot on the river. Well I hope have gotten understood.

This is a nice summary!

Just keep in mind of course that these are only good guidelines. For example, if multiple players checked a very coordinated flop to you, it’s usually best to check back with a gutshot and take the free card instead of semibluff.

 

[freddydr87]

This is why i love poker,is you have thsi studied there is no way u can louse at poker.
This is linked to preflop strategy and post flop Cbetting planification.
Iff u have a good plan pre flop, u have studied at least the 12 or 15 flops tipes them you know wish off your proyect are the good ones to raise and play agrasivelly and valance ur monsters hands and wish one you play by X/C wile in odd,because iff you dont plan this you will be disvalanced to,or either bluff to manny draws or bluff few off them,and bouth thingh are bad

 

[LuisBoaC]

Hi guys. Looking at hand 10-2, Hero holds Js Jd. Board is Qc Jh Td Ks. Answer A states:
"According to the CardsChat draws table we discussed earlier, we need 11:2 odds to call if we’re trying to hit a full house or quads."
But the table is looking at the situation from the flop, surely the turn card bring us an additional 3 outs to a full house, making the odds we need more like 4:1?
If so, is it true that whenever we have a set on an unpaired flop, a turn card that doesn't pair the board will bring us 3 more outs and increase our equity?
Or am I missing something?!
Thanks so much for everything Katie and Collin, I still love this course.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hi guys. Looking at hand 10-2, Hero holds Js Jd. Board is Qc Jh Td Ks. Answer A states:
"According to the CardsChat draws table we discussed earlier, we need 11:2 odds to call if we’re trying to hit a full house or quads."
But the table is looking at the situation from the flop, surely the turn card bring us an additional 3 outs to a full house, making the odds we need more like 4:1?
If so, is it true that whenever we have a set on an unpaired flop, a turn card that doesn't pair the board will bring us 3 more outs and increase our equity?
Or am I missing something?!
Thanks so much for everything Katie and Collin, I still love this course.

Thanks for the nice words Luis!

I’m traveling now and posting on my phone so I don’t have as easy access to the text, but you are completely right that if you hold a FH/quads draw at the turn, then:

You have 10 outs so around 20% equity and need approximately 4:1 odds. Being at the turn instead of flop has a significant impact on these figures just like you say. Will make a note to check on this and correct what definitely sounds like a mistake we made

Thanks very much for your post and pointing this out!

 

[userme4321]

Yes! Thank you Katie and Collin, this course is helping me become a better player. Not even two weeks in, and I'm showing significant improvements, been making the bubble in almost all freerolls. Starting to build a bankroll (lunch money) which I did not have before, from freeroll winnings.

1.12 outs 2. 26% change of hitting the draw if we see the river 3. bet(semi-bluff) on the turn.
Question: programs like Equilab are prohibited from actual cash games(tournaments)? I hear people are using them at the cash tables? I would think it's not permitted.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Yes! Thank you Katie and Collin, this course is helping me become a better player. Not even two weeks in, and I'm showing significant improvements, been making the bubble in almost all freerolls. Starting to build a bankroll (lunch money) which I did not have before, from freeroll winnings.

1.12 outs 2. 26% change of hitting the draw if we see the river 3. bet(semi-bluff) on the turn.
Question: programs like Equilab are prohibited from actual cash games(tournaments)? I hear people are using them at the cash tables? I would think it's not permitted.

That’s great to hear, awesome work!

For Equilab, some sites like Stars do prohibit you from using them while you play. If you have Stars open and you’re using Equilab, a warning message will pop up. So this program is best used just for study

 

[CMack3]

Day 10 the Key to playing draws

Great guidelines for playing draws. This is nicely coming together with the information learned in the previous chapters. Thanks for the card chart. If I can commit that to memory I can stop wearing sandles to the card rooms. You wouldn’t believe how upset people get when you bring your toes above table to help count outs
Peace!

 

[Collin Moshman]

Great guidelines for playing draws. This is nicely coming together with the information learned in the previous chapters. Thanks for the card chart. If I can commit that to memory I can stop wearing sandles to the card rooms. You wouldn’t believe how upset people get when you bring your toes above table to help count outs
Peace!

Haha yes I would imagine in the current COVID era that putting your toes on the table wouldn’t also be well received!

 

[Good Man]

After a two-day rest, I studied two lessons without a break today. I learned how to count outs, I understood how to do it correctly. I used to wonder. How do I count outs correctly?? And this video helped me a lot. Also a very useful table that will spy on is not remembered. I was glad that the first time I counted the outs correctly, as it turned out it was not so difficult. The main thing is to present all the cards in the deck.
Katie and Collin you are cool guys!




Life is a game , play beautiful

 

[Freepokerfree]

Hi all!

Nice video, thanks for the concepts! always adding to the learning of poker.
Greetings

 

[Katie Dozier]

After a two-day rest, I studied two lessons without a break today. I learned how to count outs, I understood how to do it correctly. I used to wonder. How do I count outs correctly?? And this video helped me a lot. Also a very useful table that will spy on is not remembered. I was glad that the first time I counted the outs correctly, as it turned out it was not so difficult. The main thing is to present all the cards in the deck.
Katie and Collin you are cool guys!




Life is a game , play beautiful

That’s really great to hear! Thanks, Good Man

 

[Katie Dozier]

Nice video, thanks for the concepts! always adding to the learning of poker.
Greetings

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Phyrrura]

Valuing draws

I sure didn't gave that much of a value to a draw, this class gave me a lot of insights to this, and gave me many ideas on how to play my draws.

 

[Debi]

I sure didn't gave that much of a value to a draw, this class gave me a lot of insights to this, and gave me many ideas on how to play my draws.

Have you been able to finish the course yet?

 

[P1R35]

Hi guys.
I have a few questions to Collin about this chapter.

You said that we should check when our draw has showdown value with A high.

Two questions to this statement.

1. How much SDvalue this A high really have on the flop (with two cards to come)? It’s very different than on the river when we can check and showdown this hand.

It’s more logic to check SDvalue w/ weak draw like 76s on QT6ss where pair of 6 wanna go to showdown and 7high draw don’t wanna build big pot with weak draw.

2. 7high (0 SDvalue) draw vs Ahigh (SDvalue) draw.
Again you said we should bet without a SDvalue. But shouldn’t we be betting/building the pot with stronger draw? Let’s say we hit our draw and get action it will be better when it will be 7high or Ahigh flush ?
I guess in some stack depths it will be jus a cooler when we hit flush and loose to higher one.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hi guys.
I have a few questions to Collin about this chapter.

You said that we should check when our draw has showdown value with A high.

Two questions to this statement.

1. How much SDvalue this A high really have on the flop (with two cards to come)? It’s very different than on the river when we can check and showdown this hand.

It’s more logic to check SDvalue w/ weak draw like 76s on QT6ss where pair of 6 wanna go to showdown and 7high draw don’t wanna build big pot with weak draw.

2. 7high (0 SDvalue) draw vs Ahigh (SDvalue) draw.
Again you said we should bet without a SDvalue. But shouldn’t we be betting/building the pot with stronger draw? Let’s say we hit our draw and get action it will be better when it will be 7high or Ahigh flush ?
I guess in some stack depths it will be jus a cooler when we hit flush and loose to higher one.

Nice questions on this chapter!

The key point is that these definitely aren't set-in-stone rules and you can for sure bet a lot of ace-high draws or other hands that are primarily drawing but have showdown value. But the key thing is that if you don't have any SD value, then betting is your ONLY chance of winning the pot. So if you have a decent draw but no SD value, you usually want to bet if you think you have any fold equity.

If you have a draw and showdown value, then you have a lot more flexibility. You can check and sometimes win the pot at showdown unimproved; or by hitting your draw; and you're also staying unpredictable by not always semi-bluffing.

 

[P1R35]

Nice questions on this chapter!

The key point is that these definitely aren't set-in-stone rules and you can for sure bet a lot of ace-high draws or other hands that are primarily drawing but have showdown value. But the key thing is that if you don't have any SD value, then betting is your ONLY chance of winning the pot. So if you have a decent draw but no SD value, you usually want to bet if you think you have any fold equity.

If you have a draw and showdown value, then you have a lot more flexibility. You can check and sometimes win the pot at showdown unimproved; or by hitting your draw; and you're also staying unpredictable by not always semi-bluffing.

I don't think its the only way we can win this pot with non SD value hand. We can XB flop and then bet/bet , or call turn probe bet from Villain and if Villain check river we can stab etc. But I guess we don't need to balance our lines in that way in most cases.

One more thing is how we proceed vs check/raise. With strong Ah flush we have easier time to play. We can call flop and call turn or 3b flop (ship if SPR is low) when we dominate other flush draws. With weak flush draw tho we would need to fold our equity in most cases (ofc depends on the raise size, spr etc).

Just my two cents to this. Thanks Collin for discussion.

 

[Collin Moshman]

I don't think its the only way we can win this pot with non SD value hand. We can XB flop and then bet/bet , or call turn probe bet from Villain and if Villain check river we can stab etc. But I guess we don't need to balance our lines in that way in most cases.

One more thing is how we proceed vs check/raise. With strong Ah flush we have easier time to play. We can call flop and call turn or 3b flop (ship if SPR is low) when we dominate other flush draws. With weak flush draw tho we would need to fold our equity in most cases (ofc depends on the raise size, spr etc).

Just my two cents to this. Thanks Collin for discussion.

Nice questions/ideas P1!

You're right that we don't need to c-bet to win the hand; we can bet at a different point instead (or another way would be to catch SD value or even runner-runner on late streets). But we will usually need to take an aggressive action to win, and the most common/easy way to do this is to c-bet flop.

With that said, you could definitely mix it up sometimes and take a different line like the ones you mention even though just betting flop is the best default play.

Facing check-raise, we would evaluate our implied odds and see if they're good enough. If they're not, then while it's never fun to have to fold a good draw, bet/folding was usually our best option.

 

[Pichman189]

Nice questions/ideas P1!

You're right that we don't need to c-bet to win the hand; we can bet at a different point instead (or another way would be to catch SD value or even runner-runner on late streets). But we will usually need to take an aggressive action to win, and the most common/easy way to do this is to c-bet flop.

With that said, you could definitely mix it up sometimes and take a different line like the ones you mention even though just betting flop is the best default play.

Facing check-raise, we would evaluate our implied odds and see if they're good enough. If they're not, then while it's never fun to have to fold a good draw, bet/folding was usually our best option.

With a draw, everything is clear, got 4 cards of the same suit and preferably with an ace and aggressively c-bet the flop and turn and then either bluff or just check if we didn't hit the flop.
But what if I have top pair or overpair and a flush draw on the board. Best defense - bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop or the whole pot? So that the one who is waiting for the flash to throw off or not help? Do I understand correctly that when there is a flush draw on the table and I have top pair, then a check is a bad decision on the flop?

 

[monkey23]

cash game and tourney game 'draw' approaches require different strategies.

i agree with the posters here who say that draws should mostly be played agressively..yup...for sure...that is one aspect of doyle's super system 1 that hasn't changed over the years. This is true for cash games.

Tournies are different...especially later on when you have a stack and are eyeing the final table where the decent money is.

In a cash game...you lose a hand / stack...no worries...top up. In a tourney, that you have been patiently and successfully grinding for hours, building your stack and maintining a good bb level, I would advise a modicum of caution with your draws. Don't be afraid to play them...especially in late position in multi way pots ...but dont be as trigger happy as you would be in a cash game.

Stack sizes are also relevant....if you are playing against a bigger stack.....be a lot more careful than if you have the other stack dominated.

wishing you all lots of run good...especially with your draws

 

[Collin Moshman]

With a draw, everything is clear, got 4 cards of the same suit and preferably with an ace and aggressively c-bet the flop and turn and then either bluff or just check if we didn't hit the flop.
But what if I have top pair or overpair and a flush draw on the board. Best defense - bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop or the whole pot? So that the one who is waiting for the flash to throw off or not help? Do I understand correctly that when there is a flush draw on the table and I have top pair, then a check is a bad decision on the flop?

Usually you want to play strong hands aggressively and bet them on the flop for value and protection, particularly when it's a coordinated flop with flush and straight draws. So while it depends on the specific situation, you normally wouldn't want to play your top pair hands slow or bet a small amount on a coordinated flop with a top pair / overpair type hand.

 

[antonis32123]

I wish I could memorise all these charts by heart , but I cannot , I guess having them close to me . applying them everytime , with this exercise I will learn them some time .

Anyway , the idea to play (most of) the draws aggressively is cool , I would say revolutionary for my games some years ago , when I would just only call until the river , always , without calculating anything on the side .

Some players donk bet first , you say do I jsu call now on the flop for my draw , oop does it worth it , if the blinds are very high , if my opponent 's stack isnot so large or he's in position , or my draw is not the best/high , also do I reraise how much for how much pot , with one opponent or with many opponents ?? Many questions for the daws... flush draws or straight draws . The fact that I got involved in a draw oop with low cards for low end draw oop and lost many blinds to villain's stupid cards 710s tilted me on my last tourney incredibly .

But I saw some videos cards up , some final tables , read some articles , and ofourse now this day course . Hopefully when I complete this course I will have learnt enough things to play draws exceptionally , apply these charts very fast in action , and , why not , crush micro/nano stakes

 

[Katie Dozier]

I wish I could memorise all these charts by heart , but I cannot , I guess having them close to me . applying them everytime , with this exercise I will learn them some time .

Anyway , the idea to play (most of) the draws aggressively is cool , I would say revolutionary for my games some years ago , when I would just only call until the river , always , without calculating anything on the side .

Some players donk bet first , you say do I jsu call now on the flop for my draw , oop does it worth it , if the blinds are very high , if my opponent 's stack isnot so large or he's in position , or my draw is not the best/high , also do I reraise how much for how much pot , with one opponent or with many opponents ?? Many questions for the daws... flush draws or straight draws . The fact that I got involved in a draw oop with low cards for low end draw oop and lost many blinds to villain's stupid cards 710s tilted me on my last tourney incredibly .

But I saw some videos cards up , some final tables , read some articles , and ofourse now this day course . Hopefully when I complete this course I will have learnt enough things to play draws exceptionally , apply these charts very fast in action , and , why not , crush micro/nano stakes

It sounds like you’ve already learned a great deal and are now a much better player than when you started—which is awesome! Plus, with an attitude that’s so open to new poker concepts/the logic of playing well, I know you’ll only continue to improve!

Best of luck along the way

 

[birdman666]

Hi guys. Looking at hand 10-2, Hero holds Js Jd. Board is Qc Jh Td Ks. Answer A states:
"According to the CardsChat draws table we discussed earlier, we need 11:2 odds to call if we’re trying to hit a full house or quads."
But the table is looking at the situation from the flop, surely the turn card bring us an additional 3 outs to a full house, making the odds we need more like 4:1?
If so, is it true that whenever we have a set on an unpaired flop, a turn card that doesn't pair the board will bring us 3 more outs and increase our equity?
Or am I missing something?!
Thanks so much for everything Katie and Collin, I still love this course.

11:2 odds is equivalent to 5.5:1 and not 4:1, thats where I believe that increased equity is.
Regarding the quiz question, I would discount the suited J, as it has a great chance of giving a full-house to villain. So 11 outs only for me.