The Key to Playing Draws (Day 10 Course Discussion)

Debi

Debi

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The Key to Playing Draws teaches us when to play draws aggressively and when to play them passively.

If you have not yet read Day 10 and watched the video for Day 10 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

The Key to Playing Draws

Be sure to take the quiz at the end of the video and then come back here to discuss playing draws. Collin and Katie are available to answer any questions you might have.

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Polytarp

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This video has taken top spot for me now because you have shown what to do and why in circumstances which require some appropriate navigation. As I was playing another 888 free roll I had the rare occurrence of getting quads pre-flop during the video presentation. I tried to illustrate how I attempted to maximize their value at a tight table. I initially put in a mini-bet which was called pre-flop but no-one was biting afterwards so I put in a small bet after the river to make it look like a steal and won a few chips. Too much and he would have folded, too little and it would not have mattered so I had to price this person out and it worked by placing myself in his position and how he perceived my betting patterns.
 

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I Live Poker

I Live Poker

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answer to the question: we have 12 outs, 3 for gut shot and 9 for flush. there is approximately a 25% chance I would bet on the semi bluff.
But I have a question could we be playing against a 9T straight draw for example then our gutshot outs would be tiny like the right 7?
 
onecardsteve

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To me the 4-2 Rule comes into play first to determine an approx % to hit , but also should we also look at the total cards remaining against our outs. Eg
your hole cards + board at Turn , = 6 cards, so say a flush draw (9*2=18%)
46 remaining cards - 9 for the draw or 46-9 = 35 which is about 4:1 to hit
 
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Day 10- Playing Draws

I confess that I have reviewed the chapters and the video a few times to try to absorb the knowledge that was many, because they are not very good at math.

But, the approach to the topic was excellent because it makes, as Collin said, a rough idea of what we should do (for me at the beginning with the aid of a calculator).:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I will probably revisit these concepts many times so as not to act impulsively with low pocket pairs and high pairs in some spots.

We should always have the statistics in hand, to reduce losses, because even with the maximum outs, we can catch bad beats as in the penultimate example of the video.

Good Luck and lets movie foward :jd4::driver:
 
Katie Dozier

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This video has taken top spot for me now because you have shown what to do and why in circumstances which require some appropriate navigation. As I was playing another 888 free roll I had the rare occurrence of getting quads pre-flop during the video presentation. I tried to illustrate how I attempted to maximize their value at a tight table. I initially put in a mini-bet which was called pre-flop but no-one was biting afterwards so I put in a small bet after the river to make it look like a steal and won a few chips. Too much and he would have folded, too little and it would not have mattered so I had to price this person out and it worked by placing myself in his position and how he perceived my betting patterns.


The “curse” of flopping quads is too often true of huuuge hands in poker—where we have such a strong hand that we have the board monopolized to the point where it’s hard for our opponents to have the kind of big holdings that we would have the best chance of extracting a lot of value from! Sounds like you did the best job you could’ve in that situation, nice work! :)
 
Katie Dozier

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answer to the question: we have 12 outs, 3 for gut shot and 9 for flush. there is approximately a 25% chance I would bet on the semi bluff.
But I have a question could we be playing against a 9T straight draw for example then our gutshot outs would be tiny like the right 7?

Good point, it’s def true that players can have stronger holdings than we expect in a given scenario which therefore reduces the number of true outs in that situation. I like to handle this by calculating the outs that I likely have versus his most probable range, but then adding a grain of salt type of adjustment like “but if he has xx then of course I don’t actually have that many outs” which is particularly helpful in close decisions. :)
 
Katie Dozier

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But, the approach to the topic was excellent because it makes, as Collin said, a rough idea of what we should do (for me at the beginning with the aid of a calculator).[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I will probably revisit these concepts many times so as not to act impulsively with low pocket pairs and high pairs in some spots.

We should always have the statistics in hand, to reduce losses, because even with the maximum outs, we can catch bad beats as in the penultimate example of the video.

Good Luck and lets movie foward :jd4::driver:

Don’t worry! When I first started playing, math was my enemy haha. I’m just not naturally one of those people that finds math interesting, it never came easily to me. (Collin certainly had the advantage over me in that regard with a degree in theoretical mathematics!)

But I was able to overcome my lack of love for math when it relates to poker through a ton of practice. For me, it helped a ton that it’s all practical, enactable math and imo it is completely non-negotiable to be good at poker math in order to be the best poker player we can possibly be. Just don’t ask me any calculus questions [emoji38]

There’s no shame in using your calculator, I still have mine by me when I play! I bet you’ll be a poker math whiz before you know it [emoji4]
 
PsychoVas

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Another very comprehensive topic! Thanks!
 
Bobbybones1950

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Play Draws Agressivly

Prior to taking this course I would have folded this hand. I was afraid if i didn't flop the nutz.
Now I consider continuing on looking for draw possibilities. :rolleyes:

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/4qrTcLK




Typically I would have folded to the first raiser. After the flop I realize I have a gutshot draw and possible flush. Then my draw looks even better.

Couple weeks ago this never could have happened Great Course Thankyou
 
Luvart

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Finished Day #10.

My answers to today's quiz:

i)We have 12 outs. 4 sevens and 8 clubs (the 7 of clubs is one of the four outs of the gutshot, so we don't count it twice).
ii)26.1% of the time.
iii)Villain checks back the flop, so he probably doesn't have anything valuable here. I think I would made a ~40-50% of the pot bet to finish the hand here.

Tomorrow with Day #11.
 
cferdi

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This video has taken top spot for me now because you have shown what to do and why in circumstances which require some appropriate navigation. As I was playing another 888 free roll I had the rare occurrence of getting quads pre-flop during the video presentation. I tried to illustrate how I attempted to maximize their value at a tight table. I initially put in a mini-bet which was called pre-flop but no-one was biting afterwards so I put in a small bet after the river to make it look like a steal and won a few chips. Too much and he would have folded, too little and it would not have mattered so I had to price this person out and it worked by placing myself in his position and how he perceived my betting patterns.


While I think it's great that you are sharing your learning, I can't help but wonder if it's ok to be showing screenshots with other players names clearly displayed. Is this allowed? Just asking.

As for your quads, good work! It's always tough when you flop a monster nut; I often find even the maniacs get squeamish, lol. It can be hard to get much into the pot, but the flush on board may have helped? People might fear the trips, they may even, for a moment, consider the FH, but rarely consider 4 of a kind!
 
cferdi

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Wow, today's lesson started my brain hurting!

Here was me thinking it was just about draws - lol 'just' - of course not! Pot odds, implied odds, stacks, betting patterns, anyone got an aspirin?:eek:
 
Collin Moshman

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Haha cferdi that's fair but don't worry, it gets a lot easier with practice and seeing the same types of situations come up a lot :)
 
Polytarp

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While I think it's great that you are sharing your learning, I can't help but wonder if it's ok to be showing screenshots with other players names clearly displayed. Is this allowed? Just asking.


When I was on RedKings they had "anonymous" tables where no screen names were displayed and you couldn't track anyone specifically and explicitly. If you kept notes however, you could figure out if there was a regular..people usually are creatures of habit especially when they believe their cloak of invisibility shields them. However, certain betting patterns from "their" tells had given me ample opportunity to provide my version of a screen name for them anyways.

On poker stars you can watch replays of games where any (dues paying) member of that site can see everyone's names. Any public interaction effectively removes any expectation of privacy so whatever is posted, unless there is clearly visible copyright protection, "should" be allowed. Internet law statutes and the nations that have enforced them are easily found via google. You should pose this question to the moderators of this forum for more specifics.

cheers:bath:
 
belizebum

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Thank god for my HUD which still works at the rooms I play. Ugh. sometimes it just has to be a gut feeling for me. I have always hated math unless I can use a spreadsheet/calculator, but again..doesn't seem like there is enough time, without the table timer beeping at you..hurry up hurry up..lol
 
redboy23

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Fellow CCers,

I love the 4-2 rule. It is really handy and takes out the guesswork. What I was not doing before is factoring in my future betting so this information is a nice addition to my arsenal.

Response to the video question:

Number of outs - 12 (9 clubs and 7s,7h,7d)
Percentage to hit- 12 x 4 = ~48% (applying 4-2 rule)
Correct play is to bet to build up the pot - I would bet 1/2 pot

Hope I nailed it. I enjoyed this chapter.
 
redboy23

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OOps,

You did say by the river so it is 12 x 2 = 24% and not the 48% previously stated.

:)
 
freddydr87

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This is why i love poker,is you have thsi studied there is no way u can louse at poker.
This is linked to preflop strategy and post flop Cbetting planification.
Iff u have a good plan pre flop, u have studied at least the 12 or 15 flops tipes them you know wish off your proyect are the good ones to raise and play agrasivelly and valance ur monsters hands and wish one you play by X/C wile in odd,because iff you dont plan this you will be disvalanced to,or either bluff to manny draws or bluff few off them,and bouth thingh are bad
 
Phoenix Wright

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A lot of generic guidelines and principles in this lesson, but it is good stuff. There is a lot to remember, but I imagine it becomes easier with time and practice.
 
makisaa

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The key to playing draws, is one of the basic key plays in the game. The chart also, is a very valuable part of this section.
 
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Hello, thank you for this video and day course.
I understand all the principle that you are explaining to us but i have one question :
even when we apply the rule we can loose and there is an example of that in this video when our opponent had a double and we didn't hit our flush but hero play well and apply the rule.
should we be happy even when loosing because we apply the rules ?
 
Collin Moshman

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Hello, thank you for this video and day course.
I understand all the principle that you are explaining to us but i have one question :
even when we apply the rule we can loose and there is an example of that in this video when our opponent had a double and we didn't hit our flush but hero play well and apply the rule.
should we be happy even when loosing because we apply the rules ?


Yes, and that's a very good point -- if you make the right decision, you should try hard to be happy regardless of the outcome. All you can do in poker is play your best possible game.
 
Amanda A

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Thanks for the great course! I sometimes run into a into a bit of trouble when I play my draws aggressively (like you suggest) out of position against a bunch of players with fishy/cally inclinations. So say I'm utg and I raise 3 BB with AK diamonds and get 3 callers. Flop comes with 2 diamonds say J 7 2, I lead out with 2 overs and a flush draw and get called by 2 players, turn is a blank. Now what? Check and show weakness, or continue to put more chips into a pot which is getting expensive where I have 15 outs assuming nobody hit a set, 9 if they did, with only one card to come. I guess it would be fine to keep leading and betting out if you are sitting on a deep stack, but if you start the hand with say 30 bigs and you raise pre flop then bet the flop and the turn with nothing you can end up putting a big hole in your stack. What am I doing wrong? Thanks!
 
Collin Moshman

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Thanks for the great course! I sometimes run into a into a bit of trouble when I play my draws aggressively (like you suggest) out of position against a bunch of players with fishy/cally inclinations. So say I'm utg and I raise 3 BB with AK diamonds and get 3 callers. Flop comes with 2 diamonds say J 7 2, I lead out with 2 overs and a flush draw and get called by 2 players, turn is a blank. Now what? Check and show weakness, or continue to put more chips into a pot which is getting expensive where I have 15 outs assuming nobody hit a set, 9 if they did, with only one card to come. I guess it would be fine to keep leading and betting out if you are sitting on a deep stack, but if you start the hand with say 30 bigs and you raise pre flop then bet the flop and the turn with nothing you can end up putting a big hole in your stack. What am I doing wrong? Thanks!


Glad you're enjoying it! Good question here.

I would normally check back in position and take the free card. If you hit, great! Otherwise you can get out without losing more chips.

Out of position, I'm usually going to shove there. The pot is so large that we're close to being committed and it's better to have fold equity. So rather than risk having to call it off, I would generally shove.
 
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