Is it ever right to fold AA preflop? :)

[TargetLion]

I think on preflop AA and KK you should never fold, but it can be in some situation especially tournaments depends on stratagy the ones have chooosen.

 

[Roadie]

Pocket Aces?

I feel doomed when get pocket A's. It seems some clown has 3-4 off and ends up with a runner runner straight

 

[yjt93]

i will basically never fold aces unless i'm on the bubble with like really small bb and the bubble is big

 

[ph_il]

You should never be folding AA preflop, other than this extreme example with specific rules [video] or a satellite bubble situation where you are have a seat locked in. And maybe situations where you're guarantee a solid pay jump at final tables...but this is a very close maybe.

This whole "fold aces if 4-5 players are all-in before you" is just completely stupid.

Yes, the chances of AA getting cracked does increase with more players in the hand, but it's still the best hands preflop vs any other hand. I think some hands like 67s might slightly increase in value but they're still not close to AA's win potential preflop vs 4-5 players.

In fact vs 4-5 players, AA still has ~56% - ~49% equity preflop.

 

[vic88888]

If one folds AA pre flop, then all hands that person has should be folded. If there are three all-ins or less, I would play them. Better to say I lost with AA then with a 64 all in

 

[mar_dragan]

You have situation,when a lot player go all in,i think in that situation you may fold this "golden" cards.

 

[finaltable1]

I don't see any difference between this "Poker TV show" and for example Simpsons or Game of Thrones. Each show is created for it's audience, to show Ads, to teach people where to spend money...

Do you guys and girls really like to watch things on TV instead of doing them? Why watch football when you can play it?

Will you fold AA in a theater if you're an well paid actor and chips cost nothing? Ofc you'll do everything that director says, because it's your job.

 

[ph_il]

I don't see any difference between this "Poker TV show" and for example Simpsons or Game of Thrones. Each show is created for it's audience, to show Ads, to teach people where to spend money...

Do you guys and girls really like to watch things on TV instead of doing them? Why watch football when you can play it?

Will you fold AA in a theater if you're an well paid actor and poker chips cost nothing? Ofc you'll do everything that director says, because it's your job.

Are you comparing live poker with a scripted poker TV show/movie? lol

You do realize that what is shown is from an unscripted live game. Heavily edit for TV, of course, because live poker is boring.

 

[Sum420gt]

Last time i was in vegas i lost a huge hand because i bet heavily on AA preflop, i should of followed the cardinal rule of poker: never get too attached to a hand!

 

[RunVovkaRun]

I think that having the AA on hand before the flop , you need to make a raise ( re-raise ) ,
to the opponent does not have the opportunity to see the flop.
Otherwise, it 's another story , and it is necessary to focus on the flop .
In any case, AA pre-flop hand is " a monster " and it can not be folded

 

[MakeUcryalot]

I would fold aces the third time i get them. Aces win about two thirds of the time. leaving a third where you get caught with them. The guy on television played it correct and avoided a serious loss.

I feel like this is terrible advice and constantly see it on KK AA folding threads. That's like saying you would go all in on a flush draw because you missed the last two, it makes no sense. I've folded Aces once, correctly, at the bubble with 3 all-ins. It was worth more to fold and save the chips than to risk busting out with smaller equity than I usually have with aces, other times I tend to slow play and fold when the villain's story makes sense. Just because you've won with aces twice in the same tourney doesn't mean you're instantly going to lose the third one because you're not taking away it's own equity by simply playing. They could win 100 times in a row and lose 20 times in a row afterwards, you're only screwing yourself folding because of a superstition.

 

[mastahbates]

lol.

Are you saying you fold AA every 3rd time you get them because they lose 1/3rd of the time? That's just stupid. If not, how do you determine when to fold/when to hold your AA?

Oh, and you know that poker results aren't linear, right? As in, just because you won with AA 2x in a row, you're probably going to lose the 3rd time, so you better fold. You already won 2/3 times with AA, don't want to press your luck....because that's not how it works.

So, I'd really like to hear your formula on when to play/not to play AA.

I was thinking the exact same. Imagine extrapolating that theory up to 100 hands: "oh no, I have AA but I have had it 66 times already. I must hold the next 34 times I get AA".

Before flop i think i wouldn't fold Aces, but at flop, turn or river, if you see that you cant win with this Aces, then it can be easy fold.
But usually its hard to fold Aces.

Could not agree more. It is a sick fold but necessary if you read someone has hit a two pair or a set.

 

[finaltable1]

Are you comparing live poker with a scripted poker TV show/movie? lol

You do realize that what is shown is from an unscripted live game. Heavily edit for TV, of course, because live poker is boring.

My humble opinion is that everything that is shown on TV is Advertising. The topicstarter placed a video with "live poker" show on TV. Couple of companies paid couple of millions for ADs during the show, TV company has earned money from subscribers... Why not pay 100K to each player to shoot them during their game? or invest 500-600K in the prize pool so they can enjoy a " nice freeroll" Can you see this? Or you do believe that there are cameras for fun, there are no operators, make up specs, film director and NO SCENARIO huh?

Do you know why i'm not going to play at wsop main event? because there are cameras in the table. are you 100% sure that players around you have no hidden headphone in their ears? They are so small nova days and for the past 10-15 years too...

In RL poker only a complete id..t will fold aces pre flop or the one who knows what cards will be dealt after the flop and what cards other players have.

My arguments are:

1) Aces = made hand.
2) Best pre flop hand.
3) Yes, the game is based on luck, and luck is proven on the river, but we're talking about pre flop AA here, right?
4) You're playing for the win? So check 1 + 2 an re-raise any.
5) 9 People go all in before you, you're having AA - you also go all in, because of 1,2,3.
6) Every time, any hand pre flop has 50% chances, YES i perfectly know poker maths, but the fact is that you only know 1 hand before the flop, and it's your hand. It is AA, Will it win or will it loose ? Chances are 50\50. It's like having a dialogue with single person, equal in education and temperament with you, most of the time it's 50\50. The same is when you're talking with big audience - it's you vs audience, still 50\50. However each person in audience is included in the other 50%, so you're in better position against each single person of the audience. That's why talking to many people is easy, that's how priests fool people with their religions in churches for example.The same happens at the poker table. it's you vs the audience, and you've got that Buddha or Jesus Christ or whatever all of the ancient Egypt\Greece Gods in your hand all together... So when you see pocket aces and couple of re-raises before you - just move your stack at the middle of the table and relax.
Cheers

 

[finaltable1]

I can not agree with NCDaddy, I've stated my arguments above. In addition to that - I will say that I'll be playing the bubble of WSOP with cameras shooting my cards only if i'll get there by playing freeroll sat and advancing directly to the WSOP main event bubble. If i'll be there from a freeroll i won't ever fold AA or KK. I'm being as real as the air i'm breathing in my conclusions, no fantasies, no jokes, just rude thinking and naked truth. Another addition is that money not as important as your personal laws of existence. Ask yourself - will you eat 2 pounds of dirt for 10 millions? 1 billion? 1 dollar? Being a cowboy online and folding AA at the bubble of WSOP? Pity...

 

[ph_il]

My humble opinion is that everything that is shown on TV is Advertising.
...Of course it is. How do you think there was such a huge poker boom? Because of television. It was a huge advertisement that attracted a lot of new players to the game. Especially when a 'nobody' named Chris Moneymaker won it all and everyone started thinking "I can do that!"

The topicstarter placed a video with "live poker" show on TV. Couple of companies paid couple of millions for ADs during the show, TV company has earned money from subscribers... Why not pay 100K to each player to shoot them during their game? or invest 500-600K in the prize pool so they can enjoy a " nice freeroll" Can you see this? Or you do believe that there are cameras for fun, there are no operators, make up specs, film director and NO SCENARIO huh?
...The game is recorded live. Whether it was shown live or not is a completely different story. As mentioned, live poker is ridiculously boring and needs a lot of heavy editing to show a lot of the action hands as the action hands are what attract players to the game. Do you think people want to see players folding a good 80% of their hands dealt?

I know some players are sponsored and you can see their sponsorship on badges and apparel the players wear. So, yes, they're probably raking in tons of money for advertising [company]. Whether the companies decide to invest money into the prize pool is up to them, but that doesn't alter the way game is played or the outcome. Tons of pros have their tournaments paid through sponsorships, sites they represent, etc because the companies and sponsership's are banking on that they'll attract more people if [poker player] is seen playing for them. The [poker player] still has to do all of the work of playing and winning.

Yes, there are cameras, there are directors in the control room controlling which cameras get put on screen, and a tons of other things in the background that we don't see that makes the viewing experience run smoothly. However, this isn't like a sitcom TV show or movie where they actors (players) have to follow a director's direction because nothing is scripted.

If anything, I would say the only think some of the players might get asked to do is to is some crazy antics like Hellmuth's blowups because those videos attract a lot of attention. But it's never anything like "OK, Phil. We're going to rig it so you're going to get AA and [player] is going to get 108s and hit a runner-runner straight flush and I want you to explode!"

That's just silly and no pro will ever agree to that. Most they'll suggest is "Hey, Phil, if you ever blow up in this game, can you just make it really animated for us?"

Do you know why i'm not going to play at WSOP main event? because there are cameras in the table. are you 100% sure that players around you have no hidden headphone in their ears? They are so small nova days and for the past 10-15 years too...
...There are only cameras on the feature table, so you probably have nothing to worry about. On all other tables, it's filmed with hand held cameras. If you're talking about the card cams, those are there is something for viewers to see. You don't attract viewers by nothing showing them the whole cards and expect them to follow along, not knowing what is happening, especially if they're new or don't fully understand the game.

Hidden headphones? I think you mean ear pieces, but do you realize how stupid that sounds. The legal issues alone would cause so much backlash that casinos and sponsoring companies wouldn't want if anyone ever found out. It would cause them way too many problems they wouldn't want to deal with and they have nothing to gain with it.

In RL poker only a complete id..t will fold aces pre flop or the one who knows what cards will be dealt after the flop and what cards other players have.
...Well, as mentioned in this thread there is a very specific situation where you could fold aces and I agree with it, so I guess that I'm a complete idiot in that situation.

Well, unless someone is fully cheating, no one knows the outcome of the hand and will very unlikely ever fold AA preflop. Unless it's that specific situation that makes me a complete idiot or if they're just really weak, result orient players.

My arguments are:

1) Aces = made hand.
...Strongest hand preflop, but not a made hand.

2) Best pre flop hand.
...I agree.

3) Yes, the game is based on luck, and luck is proven on the river, but we're talking about pre flop AA here, right?
...Luck is proven on the river? I have to disagree this as 'luck' can happen at any point in the hand. If it's AA vs 1010, it doesn't matter where the 10 hits, whether it's on the flop, turn, or river, a set of 10s > AA. The only reason why the river is so devastating for players is because they know they have no more chances to improve. At least if it hits on the flop, they can have some hope for the turn and river.

4) You're playing for the win? So check 1 + 2 an re-raise any.
...Standard.

5) 9 People go all in before you, you're having AA - you also go all in, because of 1,2,3.
...Well, it depends on the situation. If it's an MTT and I'm sitting on the shortest stack say ~2 BBs (don't ask how I got here, just use it as example), I might fold AA here because:

-If I win, I'm only increase my stack about ~20+ BBs, which probably still keeps me near the bottom of the stack sizes.

-If I lose, I'm still out in 9th place. Or 10th place in your scenario.

-If I fold, I am giving up increasing my stack, but I have a good chance and jumping up the pay ladder. If they're huge jumps, this might be worth folding instead of risking it for what is still a short stack.

6) Every time, any hand pre flop has 50% chances, YES i perfectly know poker maths
...I don't think you do.

but the fact is that you only know 1 hand before the flop, and it's your hand. It is AA, Will it win or will it loose ? Chances are 50\50.
...Yes, it's 50/50 in the sense that you either win or lose the hand. However, if we're talking true mathematics, AA has a much greater chance than 50% of winning vs ATC.

It's like having a dialogue with single person, equal in education and temperament with you, most of the time it's 50\50.
...Eh, I don't think this is the same thing.

The same is when you're talking with big audience - it's you vs audience, still 50\50. However each person in audience is included in the other 50%, so you're in better position against each single person of the audience.
...What?

That's why talking to many people is easy, that's how priests fool people with their religions in churches for example.The same happens at the poker table. it's you vs the audience
...What? No, it's not. I don't have to get through an audience of people just to win a tournament. I have to get through the remaining players in the tournament.

and you've got that Buddha or Jesus Christ or whatever all of the ancient Egypt\Greece Gods in your hand all together... So when you see pocket aces and couple of re-raises before you - just move your stack at the middle of the table and relax.
...And this has to do with any type of God because...? This is pretty much a standard play in most situations, no matter what your religious belief is.

Cheers

above.

 

[finaltable1]

Pay attention please! This discussion is about preflop AA, so all of my arguments are related only to the topic!

I'll comment your comments to my arguments first. My native language is Russian, so i might typed it little bit wrong. But once again please pay attention to the topic of our discussion.

1) Aces = made hand.
...Strongest hand preflop, but not a made hand.

Ok, I'll write "1)" again

1) Aces = made preflop hand. It's a pair, unlike AK for example.

2) - no comments

3) Yes, the game is based on luck, and luck is proven on the river, but we're talking about pre flop AA here, right?
...Luck is proven on the river? I have to disagree this as 'luck' can happen at any point in the hand. If it's AA vs 1010, it doesn't matter where the 10 hits, whether it's on the flop, turn, or river, a set of 10s > AA. The only reason why the river is so devastating for players is because they know they have no more chances to improve. At least if it hits on the flop, they can have some hope for the turn and river.

We're talking about preflop AA, not what's happening during a hand or at showdown. I'll leave "3)" as it is.

4) - no comments

5) 9 People go all in before you, you're having AA - you also go all in, because of 1,2,3.
...Well, it depends on the situation. If it's an MTT and I'm sitting on the shortest stack say ~2 BBs (don't ask how I got here, just use it as example), I might fold AA here because:

-If I win, I'm only increase my stack about ~20+ BBs, which probably still keeps me near the bottom of the stack sizes.

-If I lose, I'm still out in 9th place. Or 10th place in your scenario.

-If I fold, I am giving up increasing my stack, but I have a good chance and jumping up the pay ladder. If they're huge jumps, this might be worth folding instead of risking it for what is still a short stack.

If->Then = You're programming yourself for the failure, which is not good. If air and ocean are much more polluted than 200 years ago, then why keep breathing and swimming? If the aliens or meteor or judgement day or devil is coming, then why wait, maybe die right now? Or since you've got AA which is called your life - why not play it till the end and see what happens? The game will continue with or without you, but yours AA is the best thing you can have preflop, so it's better to live your life in full right here, right now, then fold it for a better moment? Next moment the meteor might suddenly come you know.

6) Every time, any hand pre flop has 50% chances, YES i perfectly know poker maths
...I don't think you do.

but the fact is that you only know 1 hand before the flop, and it's your hand. It is AA, Will it win or will it loose ? Chances are 50\50.
...Yes, it's 50/50 in the sense that you either win or lose the hand. However, if we're talking true mathematics, AA has a much greater chance than 50% of winning vs ATC.

I think that i clearly divided poker hand ev. math vs real chances. I'm a programmer you know and the hardware you're using to read\write at this forum is based on the software that uses binary code. Binary code is like a light switch in your homeplace, If it's on = the light is there, if it's off = there is no light. You either win or lose, so actually it's 50\50. This is called dominating system. If you look at the whole massive of information - there are subsystems. The situation where you're having AA, 3 people go all in in front of you, and you join the pot - such situation is called subsystem, and your chances in such subsystem are 25%. The dominating system (50/50) becomes an environment. If you go deeper into hand evaluation rankings - it will be another subsystem for previous 2 dominating systems. I hope it's clear... Another simple example is the human body, whch is combination of many systems. Human is placed in environment = apartment or house, which is also a system. House is placed in the city, which is also a system. City is placed in the country, which is also a system, country in planet, planet in solar system, galaxy, universe, metaverse and so on, it's eternal. Each dominating system is also environment for the subsystems it consists of. So going back to preflop aces the dominating mathematics of this hand is 50/50. Some people ignore it, going directly to hand ev. maths, some people play AA 2 out of 3 times, some people don't play poker at all. But the facts are obvious it starts with 50/50, then you can keep calculating... it's obvious. well maybe just for me, it's another fact i can't ignore.


Rest of the "6)" in my original post was just an example of 50/50, not only in mathematics, but also in psychology and social aspects. I was trying to show how people are getting fooled sometimes. How for example priests are playing "poker" in churches with bible in their hand vs people who need an explanation to what's happening and what was before and what will be after the life. It's like a person who has straight flush at the river vs whole table in the pot... he can tell any stories now because he feels like he's winning. But he can't beat a) the royal flush and... most precious b) the player who is not playing at such table.

As for the TV show part and WSOP. My position for WSOP - I've stated it in another post. Too many software and hardware used and risks are too high to go there with money from your bank account. If you'll go there from a freeroll sat - I'll applause you. It will be a single smart move. For the poker TV show and so called "poker PRO's" like Phil Helmuth, Ivey and so on... I'll write just one thing. Do you know what "the contract" is?
Cheers

 

[Cajunaimee]

i dont think i could throw them away pre, even on the bubble.

 

[darkelf1]

bubble , , but still AA best hand - best odds you have to gamble , fold them is not a right play, only bubble , or few places left and you dont feelin it yep fold.

 

[baxre]

Preflop folding AA is impossible. Post flop its different story.

 

[midgetfactory]

If im in a satelite, and its near the bubble i will make a decision to fols if i feel its right at the time

 

[IronHaji1989]

Shady and bad play to be honest. Phil Laak and his pocket sixes are folding to any sign of aggression there.

My move. I'm ALL IN bro.

You wanna play that game let's put your stack to the test.

 

[Zelengorov]

It is possible folding AA preflop

 

[ItryhardAA]

yea you should NEVER FOLD AA PRE-FLOP UNLESS ITS A SATTALIE OR TRIPLE-UP SNG. if people say they would never fold AA ever then you should possibly not listen to what they have to say all the time because false information. bit folding in a 3 way pot is still just bad at that point you just push all-in. but never fold

 

[Cherubael]

I'd only ever fold aces (MW or not) if I was med-short stacked and right on the bubble of a large tourney. I feel the chance of having them cracked isn't worth losing out on the money.

 

[berksan]

never fold AA preflop