how to play AA

[yourguynow]

You played it well. Maybe more could have been bet pre-flop but chances are the 77 would still have called (based on him staying thru the river anyway). Your play built up the pot and you were the favorite right to the end. He just got lucky. Hey, that river was just as likely to have been another ace!. There were two cards in the whole remaining deck that could beat you and he got lucky. Nice job.

 

[RogueRivered]

You played it well. Maybe more could have been bet pre-flop but chances are the 77 would still have called (based on him staying thru the river anyway). Your play built up the pot and you were the favorite right to the end. He just got lucky. Hey, that river was just as likely to have been another ace!. There were two cards in the whole remaining deck that could beat you and he got lucky. Nice job.

Agreed. I think it was well-played. You can't really make too big of a mistake whatever you do with pocket aces, as long as you get the money in.

 

[RogueRivered]

Here is what Phil Gordon says about raising the right amount in Little Green Book:

Early: Raise 2.5x-3.0x
Middle: 3.0x-3.5x
Late: 3.5x-40x
SB: 3.0x

Reasons to vary raise according to position:

Commit fewer chips to pot when out of position
Smaller raise from EP encourages opponents to play
Bigger raises from LP put more pressure on remaining players, making it harder for the blinds to reraise
When in position, there is more money in the pot

He does not vary the size of the raise based on the strength of the hand. Raising the same keeps opponents from defining the hand by the size of the bet. He is still trying to limit the field with his raises.

With the OP on such a short stack, he will likely get more callers while he is a huge favorite. If his stack were really big, then yes, I'd be more worried about the other players.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Here is what Phil Gordon says about raising the right amount in Little Green Book:

Early: Raise 2.5x-3.0x
Middle: 3.0x-3.5x
Late: 3.5x-40x
SB: 3.0x

Reasons to vary raise according to position:

Commit fewer chips to pot when out of position
Smaller raise from EP encourages opponents to play
Bigger raises from LP put more pressure on remaining players, making it harder for the blinds to reraise
When in position, there is more money in the pot

He does not vary the size of the raise based on the strength of the hand. Raising the same keeps opponents from defining the hand by the size of the bet. He is still trying to limit the field with his raises.

With the OP on such a short stack, he will likely get more callers while he is a huge favorite. If his stack were really big, then yes, I'd be more worried about the other players.

Some people advocate betting small in early and incerasing with position.

Others Bet big In early and decrease with position.

I think the question is can you explain why you would bet small in early?

My reasons for betting larger there is that EP represents the strongest part of my range. The bet it therefore representative of my range.

Betting small just seems backwards.. you are encouraging player into a pot that you will be OOP for the entire hand with.

I have heard people advocate it before, but the arguments for raising bigger make more sense to me.

 

[RogueRivered]

My reasons for betting larger there is that EP represents the strongest part of my range. The bet it therefore representative of my range.

I know we've gone round and round on this. My question is why do you want to discourage people from playing against you with the strongest part of your range?

you are encouraging player into a pot that you will be OOP for the entire hand with.

And it will be easy to let go if you have to, or you end up making more when you're strong. I like the pot to be bigger when I'm in position, not smaller. (I think.) It forces my opponents to make bigger mistakes.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I know we've gone round and round on this. My question is why do you want to discourage people from playing against you with the strongest part of your range?

If it genuinely is a question, reread the thread. I dont know how else to explain it to you.

 

[RogueRivered]

If it genuinely is a question, reread the thread. I dont know how else to explain it to you.

Well, let me guess then. You don't want opponents when you have your strongest range because you don't want to lose a small pot?

???

Makes no sense.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Well, let me guess then. You don't want opponents when you have your strongest range because you don't want to lose a small pot?

???

Makes no sense.

Its a mystery.

If aiming to play pots multiway and OOP is working for you, keep doing it.

 

[bw07507]

Only way to play AA is to ram and jam it preflop baby. Raise to atleast 8BB next time, u dont want garbage hands calling you

 

[kidkvno1]

Here is what Phil Gordon says about raising the right amount in Little Green Book:

Early: Raise 2.5x-3.0x
Middle: 3.0x-3.5x
Late: 3.5x-40x
SB: 3.0x

Reasons to vary raise according to position:

Commit fewer chips to pot when out of position
Smaller raise from EP encourages opponents to play
Bigger raises from LP put more pressure on remaining players, making it harder for the blinds to reraise
When in position, there is more money in the pot

He does not vary the size of the raise based on the strength of the hand. Raising the same keeps opponents from defining the hand by the size of the bet. He is still trying to limit the field with his raises.

With the OP on such a short stack, he will likely get more callers while he is a huge favorite. If his stack were really big, then yes, I'd be more worried about the other players.

Sometimes it works, but i found out most of the time is does not..

Some people advocate betting small in early and incerasing with position.

Others Bet big In early and decrease with position.

I think the question is can you explain why you would bet small in early?

My reasons for betting larger there is that EP represents the strongest part of my range. The bet it therefore representative of my range.

Betting small just seems backwards.. you are encouraging player into a pot that you will be OOP for the entire hand with.

I have heard people advocate it before, but the arguments for raising bigger make more sense to me.

i will raise more in EP, if i think the button is going to call. I may not play that many hands from EP, but i got a good win rate..
Using both ways, can help mess up players, when they have put you on a range.
I play for how a table calls for..

 

[RogueRivered]

Its a mystery.

If aiming to play pots multiway and OOP is working for you, keep doing it.

Do you have Miller's Professional No-Limit Hold 'em? If so, you need to reread Part 4: Planning Hands Around Commitment, especially pages 198 - 222 dealing with SPR.

If you want to continue to lose value in all positions, be my guest.

Only way to play AA is to ram and jam it preflop baby. Raise to atleast 8BB next time, u dont want garbage hands calling you

Depends on stack sizes, doesn't it? No such thing as "only way" in poker.

 

[TPC]

I think RougueRivered is GDRiley's new screen name!!!

 

[RogueRivered]

I think RougueRivered is GDRiley's new screen name!!!

That was cruel!

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Do you have Miller's Professional No-Limit Hold 'em? If so, you need to reread Part 4: Planning Hands Around Commitment, especially pages 198 - 222 dealing with SPR.

If you want to continue to lose value in all positions, be my guest.

Your SPR is so low either way that you are committed.

(remember this is a SS situation)

HU - slightly larger raise preflop, you have an SPR of about 1.5 against a single opponent.

MW - smaller preflop raise, you have an SPR of again around 1.5, maybe a it less. This time against several opponents.

You will be shoving the flop regardless.

HU - a single opponent is being offered roughly correct odds to call with any 8 out draw.

MW the same odds are being offered to multiple opponents.

A rough rule of thumb is that a single villian misses 70% of flops.

The chances of all 4 villians missing the flop are 25%

This means that HU there is a 30% chance of your opponent having a hand worth continuing. MW there is a 75% chance that at least one of them decides to continue.


Most of PNLHEM is written concerning HU play, however you may want to read page 235 of PNLHEM

"Top pair hands prefer HU and 3 handed pots. With TP you might commit with a certain SPR. But in a multiway pot with the same SPR you might not want to commit" - ED Miller

 

[cardplayer52]

this bet sizing is most likely Chris Feguson's making IMO. but i'm w/stu on this one. i think just the fact that more people are left to act the more likely someone is to call my raise. so IMO a bigger raise from up front is more likely to get more money in the pot when i'm way ahead. with a premium hand i'm less worried about position and the fact more goes in preflop this lessons the advantage of position. tough to make me fold when i'm committed.

 

[RogueRivered]

This sounds like the argument: "all the players are so bad, I can't win."

Anyone would be making a mistake calling you -- if they all call you, yes, you might lose more often, but you'll mostly win and you'll win a lot more.

You are committed with AA and such a short stack. Hopefully everyone will come along with you. It very unlikely (more like impossible in this SS situation) anyone will flop anything good enough to make up for their mistake. What are they going to call with that makes the SPR high enough to continue? There are not enough implied odds in anything unless you can ignore the AA and get up against another big stack.

We're not talking AQo as in the example from the book on p. 234, we're talking AA!

 

[RogueRivered]

this bet sizing is most likely Chris Feguson's making IMO. but i'm w/stu on this one. i think just the fact that more people are left to act the more likely someone is to call my raise. so IMO a bigger raise from up front is more likely to get more money in the pot when i'm way ahead. with a premium hand i'm less worried about position and the fact more goes in preflop this lessons the advantage of position. tough to make me fold when i'm committed.

Why would someone call a big raise from a bettor in early position -- doesn't that scream big hand? Do you balance your range and bet big with trash from early position? If so, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you might get a caller. But you'll have to fold a lot, too, once they realize you aren't just raising premium hands. It will hurt more to fold big raises than small ones.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Why would someone call a big raise from a bettor in early position -- doesn't that scream big hand? Do you balance your range and bet big with trash from early position? If so, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you might get a caller. But you'll have to fold a lot, too, once they realize you aren't just raising premium hands. It will hurt more to fold big raises than small ones.

No.

The fact that you open from EP screams big hand!!!

What is YOUR EP range?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I think RougueRivered is GDRiley's new screen name!!!

GDRivered

 

[Stu_Ungar]

We're not talking AQo as in the example from the book on p. 234, we're talking AA!

Being as there are only about 8 pages in the book dealing with multiway pots you will have to settle for a reference to TP.

The book is written mainly for HU play.

I simply quoted it because you had made reference to PNLHEM

 

[RogueRivered]

GDRivered

Wow, what a tough crowd. I feel like Rodney Dangerfield around here.

 

[cardplayer52]

Why would someone call a big raise from a bettor in early position -- doesn't that scream big hand? Do you balance your range and bet big with trash from early position? If so, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you might get a caller. But you'll have to fold a lot, too, once they realize you aren't just raising premium hands. It will hurt more to fold big raises than small ones.

i will throw in a suited connector hear and there. but for the most part its tight from up front and loose in back. i did play this less from up front more from back. but read here to do the opposite and have been. i am playing micro's(this may explain alot) and also will switch my bet sizing(by position only) if the table isnt agreeing with it. but as for screaming big pair i always seem to get that one yahoo who hears it big bluff and starts shoving junk back at me. but doesnt any raise from EP scream big pair anyway isnt that what Chris Ferguson says? i don't call many raises from EP of anysize without lots of implied odds or am fairly sure i can move them off most hands. but yes i get calls all the time why i dont know. and get played back at more often than i think normal.

 

[WossaPotOddz]

I noticed that Phil Gordon's Little Green Book mentions AA is a 85.5% favorite HU against a random hand, but a 50+% favorite against 4 random hands, so he concludes that it's better to get one caller than four. I don't see how that mathematically makes sense. If you win 4 times the money only 30 some percent less of the time

It's because the size of the pot you lose grows exponentially as the number of villains to see flop increases. Change the 85.5% and 50% to big blinds, then for every +% you give +1 big blind and for every -% you give -1 big blind.

+85.5 - 14.5 = +71

+50 - 50 = 0

+71 is definately better than zero imo

 

[RogueRivered]

It's because the size of the pot you lose grows exponentially as the number of villains to see flop increases. Change the 85.5% and 50% to big blinds, then for every +% you give +1 big blind and for every -% you give -1 big blind.

+85.5 - 14.5 = +71

+50 - 50 = 0

+71 is definately better than zero imo

Okay, maybe you guys are starting to get it through my thick skull, but I don't understand what you mean here about the part in bold and how that relates to the formulas.

I checked my database tonight, and shockingly it shows I did better oop with higher raises and better ip with lower raises. This is at 6-max (all I play) and my image is tight. Gordon's book makes sense to me, but my own database and what you guys are saying shows differently. I couldn't really get a different result when I ran it by effective stack sizes, either.:joyman:

 

[ZZFLOP]

At these stakes I find that a raise that means something in comparison to the money people have in front of them is more effective.

A raise of 3 BB or 4BB isn't going to thin the field if people don't know/realize/care it means you have a strong hand.

I would raise more is the table is that loose, you might not get any action with AA or maybe just one caller, which would make it easier to find out where you're at post-flop.

You will still get unlucky sometimes with these calling stations, but that's part of these levels.

A benefit of playing there is that you can play small PP, suited connectors relatively cheap and you will win bigger pots with those hands.

You can only win big with AA if someone else has a high PP or AK, with AA you win a small pot or loose a big one.

And don't play cash games if you don't have the BR which can take these swings, you can't play good if you're scared to bet big enough.