You should never be a pathetic calling station.

[budebuzz]

I feel like I am basicly a calling station in a situation where I have a good hand but not the nuts and someone else is doing the betting so I just call since the chips are getting in the pot, is that a calling station. I do let the other player catch up possibly but in most cases I have to risk a very big bet to get them to fold when they could either have a better hand or still call and catch their draw, I feel I am trying to control my loss in either case since I dont know what they have.

 

[Pbland]

This is an interesting thread with lots of good points. I for one don't think we have enough info. This is one hand and to say Toth is a calling station is hard to say. The missing info me is how had Elky been playing in the last 20 hands or so? Was he super aggressive? Seems like Elky is a very aggressive player, so I don't think calling is a bad option when you have a hand. I like the idea of letting aggressive players hang themselves. Regardless of how Elky had been playing, I would've like to seen a blocking bet by Toth on the river.

This is a good one.

 

[Dreams of Tragedy]

ok .....i don't think the person is a calling station.

If you flop a 4 card straight draw... you going to keep calling no matter how much the other person is betting and raising.

 

[LukeSilver]

This is why I hate Poker tv to a degree its entertaining to watch but very misleading. They do not show you all the hands but only the big pots not exciting action, plays which differ from the norm may not look great in isolation but perhaps history behind it makes it make more sense. perhaps Elky had been a maniac for ages and constantly shoving on the river, probably not so severe but the point is without the history judging play when its at such a high level is not really fair. You are seeing a hand in isolation, From my experience I have got in situations against players who are constantly re raising me, almost every hand and then a situation like this comes up they raise my blind I re raise with a hand like AJ they re raise again, I just can't put them on a big hand for certain because they have re raised me many times, then I see a flop of J97 or something can't get away and oh great this time they have QQ or KK in there hand and I am screwed.

Did I play bad there maybe but the history makes it more understandable I have since learned from these situations and generally try to keep a pot small if such circumstances occur.

Has this been happening with these two did Elky Shove a lot of rivers, maybe maybe not if you can show me the full sequence of events all the hands leading up to this one then we can try and argue whether the players are good or not, this in isolation though I don't think much can be said for it.

 

[Rldetheflop]

ok .....i don't think the person is a calling station.

If you flop a 4 card straight draw... you going to keep calling no matter how much the other person is betting and raising.

ummm I hope not

 

[Monoxide]

I dont understand what hands you would hope to get value out of by betting the turn.... the hand was played great and elky runs as elky does, binking his gin card on the river.

Elky has a very wide range, so raising turn will most likely eliminate the hands that will probably shove river, make sense? You can allow him to see the river for a good price as hes out of position on a relatively safe board and because hes so hyper aggro.

 

[ph_il]

You've just got to hate straights after seeing this video!

...what?

 

[worditst]

The calling station was an idiot the whole hand. Either bet the flop or fold on other streets if you're going to be that passive.. if he raises your flop bet then obviously you got a decision but he decided to check top pair top kicker?

 

[Johnnybmoto]

The calling station was an idiot the whole hand. Either bet the flop or fold on other streets if you're going to be that passive.. if he raises your flop bet then obviously you got a decision but he decided to check top pair top kicker?

Did you read the thread?

 

[wetyeti]

I read the thread and am still thinking I would want to raise that flop. Knowing Elky has such a huge range I would want to bet TPTK to try to get something info wise. If Im going to play AJ I am almost going to bet when my jack hits without an overcard. By checking I am simply going to be wondering even more where I am at, which is exactly what good LAG players like Elky want me to be.
I am not saying Toth played it wrong or poorly, I am only saying how I would play it.

Great thread, lots of excellent perspectives, some over my head. Im still learning.

 

[StormRaven]

A lot of this stuff looks mysteriously idiotic to us if we don't know what they're trying to accomplish, and what they're thinking the other guy is thinking. I agree w marginal, raising the turn would be a mistake - what are we accomplishing? Anything that calls crushes us, and anything that folds denies us the possibility of clipping a river bluff. Call it greed or whatever you like, but it's sound reasoning.

The beauty/horror of this hand is that the river looks like a 100% complete and total blank - Toth has to feel that if he was ahead on the turn, he's ahead on the river - so the primary question in his mind is going to be whether Elky was ahead on the turn - and the answer he comes up with is obviously that while Elky could have hands in his range that were ahead on the turn, he has more hands in his range that were behind on the turn.

^^^I agree with this.

 

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

I'm reading other CCer's perspectives and views. I agree that Elky is very hyper aggressive player and smooth-calling is correct play against guys like elky so that elky can rape himself. But I don't think that was the case here. He wasn't trapping. He only called because he doesn't know where he stands with his pair of jacks against possible pair of queens, possible set, possible two pairs, possible flush. If he had a set or two pairs and called, it's just unlucky river that backfired his slowplay. But I don't think this guy was slow-playing or had a read that elky was bluffing. This Toth guy or whatever he is looked like every other calling stations from 2NL - 10NL on full tilt who can't let go of their middle or bottom pairs.

 

[slycbnew]

I'm reading other CCer's perspectives and views. I agree that Elky is very hyper aggressive player and smooth-calling is correct play against guys like elky so that elky can rape himself. But I don't think that was the case here. He wasn't trapping. He only called because he doesn't know where he stands with his pair of jacks against possible pair of queens, possible set, possible two pairs, possible flush. If he had a set or two pairs and called, it's just unlucky river that backfired his slowplay. But I don't think this guy was slow-playing or had a read that elky was bluffing. This Toth guy or whatever he is looked like every other calling stations from 2NL - 10NL on full tilt who can't let go of their middle or bottom pairs.

Well, you could be right, I don't know Toth's playing style/skill level at all, never heard of him before watching this video - he may have walked straight off the 2nl tables and lucked his way to a big stack - it happens, Jerry Yang clearly is no theoretician (I have nothing against Yang, but he's not a Patrik Antonius or anything by any means).

I don't have your soul reading abilities, though, so I'm giving Toth the benefit of the doubt for intentionally playing a line that makes sense, rather than accidentally.

I'm not sure why it's so important to you to say over and over again that he's a calling station, esp if you understand how the line could make sense - maybe Toth came right out and said "I didn't know what the hell I was doing, so I turned into a huge calling station cuz I didn't know where I stood in the hand" and I missed it - but I also don't care much why it's important tbh, it's the line that's interesting imo, not the player.

 

[AtiFCOD]

Here's why

YouTube- PokerStars.tv - EPT 3 Copenhagen - Elky vs Toth

What do you guys think of this? I think Toth is a pathetic calling station. I do not consider calling as option. It's either bet or fold. If he betted, he would've taken down the pot. Calling stations let people catch up with their hands.

Tóth Ricsi is one of the best hungarian players. He won many live tournaments and just become a pokerstars pro. You can see him when you log in PS.

I think he played it well. I guess he tried to make a trap for Elky (knowing that he was bluffing) and it worked well till the river. We dont know what happened before this hand, tho that would be good for us to understand this situation better.

 

[Pafkata]

Let me expand a little then. Elky is a ridiculously aggressive player who will bet a lot with air. He range is not just the nuts, it includes a lot of hands that missed this board. He is also very willing to put his whole stack in on a bluff.

Now to your hand, The problem with raising is this, you only fold out hands you beat and get called when you are dominated. You win when you get value from hands you beat and you dont lose too much when you are beat, by making a raise you allow villain to play perfectly against you and when he has a hand you lose a stack, when he doesnt you lose bluffs on later streets.

There are obviously sometimes when you should be raising and sometimes when you should be calling but the situations in this thread are not the times when you want to be raising and that does not make you a calling station.



Also, you are being very very results oriented, just because the card hit does not mean you played it wrong, it just means you got unlucky.

Very very very wrong... Elky will never put his whole stack on a bluff if he's playing against a player who can eliminate him... I doubt if he ever went all-in on a bluff on the river..

You don't understand the basics of the hyper-aggressive play. Hyper aggressive players are involved in many pots and raise big when the pot is small - these actions leave the impression that they are always bluffing. The wildest thing hyper-aggros do is go all-in on the TURN with air if they think their opponent can fold... River bluffs usually do not work because the pots is big enough and the caller usually has the odds to make the call.

Toth played the hand correctly pre-flop and the check on the flop is OK, because he wants to let Elky bluff at it. The most profitable play in this hand is big flop check-raise to take it down.

Hyper-aggros want you to fold or call their bets, they never want a re-raise. You can experiment at a lower level than what you play to re-raise LAGs - you will be amazed how often they fold opposed to shoving all-in on a bluff as everyone expects.

LAGs don't think you hit a top pair if you just call and they can shove the turn with air and many weak-TAGs will fold afraid from sets or two pairs.

You have to let the hyper-aggro know that you hit a hand and you are not going to fold.. Raising the flop will also protect your hand from pocket underpairs hitting their set luckily on the turn !!! or hitting the str8 like this case..

I am not sure why I am writing this, because I just remembered Daniel Negreanu's "Don't educate the sucker"

 

[ukaliks]

Toff played it bad preflop. Either shove or fold with AJs when sum 1 4bets ya.

 

[Marginal]

Pafkata, What you are saying is that elky is not balancing his river shove range which is obviously very wrong and elky is beyond the level where he is that readable.

ukaliks, Shoving preflop would be a mistake.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

i feel like i'm drowning in a huge sea of generalisations itt

 

[Monoxide]

Very very very wrong... Elky will never put his whole stack on a bluff if he's playing against a player who can eliminate him... I doubt if he ever went all-in on a bluff on the river..

You don't understand the basics of the hyper-aggressive play. Hyper aggressive players are involved in many pots and raise big when the pot is small - these actions leave the impression that they are always bluffing. The wildest thing hyper-aggros do is go all-in on the TURN with air if they think their opponent can fold... River bluffs usually do not work because the pots is big enough and the caller usually has the odds to make the call.

Toth played the hand correctly pre-flop and the check on the flop is OK, because he wants to let Elky bluff at it. The most profitable play in this hand is big flop check-raise to take it down.

Hyper-aggros want you to fold or call their bets, they never want a re-raise. You can experiment at a lower level than what you play to re-raise LAGs - you will be amazed how often they fold opposed to shoving all-in on a bluff as everyone expects.

LAGs don't think you hit a top pair if you just call and they can shove the turn with air and many weak-TAGs will fold afraid from sets or two pairs.

You have to let the hyper-aggro know that you hit a hand and you are not going to fold.. Raising the flop will also protect your hand from pocket underpairs hitting their set luckily on the turn !!! or hitting the str8 like this case..

I am not sure why I am writing this, because I just remembered Daniel Negreanu's "Don't educate the sucker"

Toff played it bad preflop. Either shove or fold with AJs when sum 1 4bets ya.

/takes two large rocks and smashes own brain into grey matter

holy shit guys really?

of ****ing course hlags dont want a reraise because they range often consists of air, why would you raise flop and halt their bluffing line? as soon as you raise there the hand is over 98% of the time.

jeeezzzz so baddd, does anyone even read the replies or just post random garbage just4funs?

 

[ph_il]

I disagree. If Toth believed Elky for a better hand on the turn, Toth should fold. If he doesn't believe Elky, Toth should shove on the turn. Calling station make people catch up with their hands. this is good example. Or at least i think so. toth played this bad.

So, you would bet the turn so a player has a chance to fold his bad hand? Why?

 

[HOLDEMNEWFIE]

if he thought his hand was good after the turn he should have reraised and took the pot .

 

[Marginal]

lock thread for pure stupidity.

 

[ph_il]

if he thought his hand was good after the turn he should have reraised and took the pot .

But you'd be missing out on a river bluff by Elky if he is holding worse. Why would want a player to fold their bad hands when you have them beat? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

...In a sense, its like saying when I bet, I want all bad hands to fold and only good/better hands to call me.

 

[bsothe1]

I think when someone is in a big downspell they start making more calls than bets and it is a bad habit.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

lock thread for pure stupidity.

i'm very tempted