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bubonicplay
Rock Star
Silver Level
I could write a long post about how bets should have a purpose and when your opponent is likely to bluff later only folding out better hands is not smart or I could just say read over this entire thread hit ctrl+f and search marginal. Read all his posts. Hopefully you learn something because he knows what he's talking about and no offense but a lot of people posting here don't.
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Pafkata
Rock Star
Silver Level
It does make lots of sense while playing a tournament. You can't afford to be outdrawn when there's a big pot in the middle. You'd better take it now with the best hand rather than get outdrawn and lose a huge pot.
Top pair top kicker hands are not unbeatable. They are definitely the nuts against hyper-aggressive player on the flop,but TPTK is often not the best hand when the river card hits.
Cash games are completely different and I can understand the logic about letting the hyper-aggro bluff some money, because most of the time I will win in such spots and if I get unlucky I can rebuy. But this is a tournament and chips are very valuable because you will be out very soon if you let few people outdraw you...
PS. I am sure Elky balances his river all-in range,but I'd bet he tries to bluff only when relatively shortstacked or against people who can't hurt his big stack... I doubt he ever bluffs on the river against someone with bigger chip stack than him when he is above the average stack!
moeraj
Rock Star
Silver Level
No offence to marginal but you need to bet after the flop here to try to find out where you stand with top pair and top kick and a very good chance to pick up the pot right there. I understand the theory behind Elky being a loose player but I still believe there are too many scare cards (overcards) in the deck to check this flop.You are letting too many potentially goofy hands to catch up to you here.
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Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Donk betting the flop makes no sense, it allows elky to play his hand perfectly against us.
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wetyeti
Rock Star
Silver Level
Marginal
Could you explain this a little more? As I stated earlier some of the stuff on this thread is over my head. I've been working on my game a lot and have seen quite a bit of improvement. In this Toth vs. Elky example it seems like every idea on how I would play it is poor. Please advise.
Could you explain this a little more? As I stated earlier some of the stuff on this thread is over my head. I've been working on my game a lot and have seen quite a bit of improvement. In this Toth vs. Elky example it seems like every idea on how I would play it is poor. Please advise.
Kasanova King
Visionary
Silver Level
That argument makes perfect sense for cash games and EV.
In tournament play, especially on the final table, it does not hold water. If your opponent hits any of his outs, you are dead in the water. Tournament play at that point is indeed about taking the pot down, protecting your hand, surviving and moving on to the next hand.
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I dont understand how thats not a +ev play in a tournament.
The more chips you gain, the better chance at achieving the main goal of a tournament, to win 1st prize. If elky "gives" you the option to either win a small pot quickly eliminating any future bets, or win a huge pot by playing the hand to its maximum value... thats always the correct option. If the money truely means so much to the particular player in terms of moving up the ladder, then its a huge hinderance on your ability to play and basically cripples you, i know from experience in being in this situation before.
Also considering how many chips toth had, he isnt even eliminated if he loses the hand plus having a chance to pick off elky on a bluff and knock out him out? The value in that alone is immense in moving up the ladder.
The more chips you gain, the better chance at achieving the main goal of a tournament, to win 1st prize. If elky "gives" you the option to either win a small pot quickly eliminating any future bets, or win a huge pot by playing the hand to its maximum value... thats always the correct option. If the money truely means so much to the particular player in terms of moving up the ladder, then its a huge hinderance on your ability to play and basically cripples you, i know from experience in being in this situation before.
Also considering how many chips toth had, he isnt even eliminated if he loses the hand plus having a chance to pick off elky on a bluff and knock out him out? The value in that alone is immense in moving up the ladder.
5TR8 FLUSH
Legend
Platinum Level
I think toth played the hand correctly, it was just unfortunate and very unlucky that elky made the straight on the river. I hardly recognized elky because i'm use to seeing a crazy looking white dude with bright blond hair, LOL. 
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Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Get yer shinebox.
Kasanova King
Visionary
Silver Level
It could be...it could also get you busted (or at least severely crippled). In that situation you would need to take a step back and evaluate everything, not just go by EV b/c you can't buy back in. Sure, if you make the proper +EV move you will win over time but you may not win that hand - and in a tournament, it's about winning the hand.
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
There's a balance we should be looking for here. If our goal is to win the tournament, we're going to take risks where we believe the opportunity outweighs the risk. Winning a given hand for the minimum amount (here, re-raising pf or a c/r on the flop or turn would have accomplished that) is certainly the safe route, but doesn't maximize our opportunity to win the tourney.
There's an opportunity here to take Elky's entire stack AND knock out an extremely dangerous player - if we think the risk that Elky's actually got a hand is greater than the opportunity to significantly increase our stack and knock a dangerous player out of the tournament, than certainly we should be looking to take the pot down quickly.
If we're looking to coast into the money, we could also simply fold AJ pf in Toth's spot (which is clearly what Elky wanted to happen) - I'm assuming Toth's stack is large enough to accomplish that.
I'm pretty sure Toth is playing to win the tourney, is aware of the risks and opportunities, and chooses a dangerous line that, if it pays off, puts him in a pretty commanding situation in the tourney - and, if it doesn't pay off, doesn't knock him out of the tourney either.
bgomez89
Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
How did toth not play it right? The guy gets 4bet and calls to see a flop and he hits top pair top kicker. With Elky being as aggro as he is, one would expect him to bet this flop since he made the 4bet; donk betting this would just be retarded. On the turn I like the check because with a 3rd spade out there and an over card, it'd be dangerous for us to bet since as some others mentioned he calls with hands that have us crushed and folds out the ones we beat. By check/calling we have the opportunity to keep the pot small with our small hand and see if we can either improve our hand by the river or call an ok sized bet on the river.
I have no idea why some of the people in this thread think toth is "slowplaying" or being a "calling station" in this hand but whatever.
That being said i probably wouldn't have called the river shove with just 2nd pair
I have no idea why some of the people in this thread think toth is "slowplaying" or being a "calling station" in this hand but whatever.
That being said i probably wouldn't have called the river shove with just 2nd pair
Kasanova King
Visionary
Silver Level
I agree for the most part, you do need to take risks to win and I do think Toth played it right, up until the river. At that point, he should have taken a step back and re-evaluated the situation.
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Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
I honestly think you are being a little results oriented here. The river does not really change anything.
Kasanova King
Visionary
Silver Level
I think you need to be a little results oriented in tournament poker, much more so than in cash games - especially on the final table. The gutshot draw was within A.S.'s range. When A.S. shoved river, Toth needed to realize he was beat.
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Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
I do not know why I continue with this hand because I/ no one hear was involved and were not there, do not know meta game etc but I continue cause I am an idiot.
Elky's shoving range on the river is very wide, it does not only consist of made hands and the river only hits a tiny portion of it. Once he calls the turn, he cannot be folding the river here.
Kasanova King
Visionary
Silver Level
Yeah, I agree, we don't know what was going on leading up to the hand. I still think he could have folded river - that's what makes some pros better than others, the ability to make those difficult laydowns.
I'm done talking about it though...I think it could have gone either way, the end result is that he made the call, lost the hand.
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cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Just watched the video. I can't see how you call Toth a "pathetic calling station" which I imagine several other of the 50 posts say. I will read them after blabbing my own opinion.
Considering Elky's style and range I think calling the 4bet pre flop was justified. I might bet this flop... But other than that I can't fault any of the play.
The river card was a terrible thing for Toth as it was exactly the perfect storm card for Elky. Not just that it gave him the nuts... but it pretty much guaranteed 57 to be the ONLY hand Elky could win with, except for some weird queen.
Seems to be Elky got extraordinarily lucky in this hand... in fact about as lucky as you ever get in this game.
I will read them after blabbing my own opinion.Considering Elky's style and range I think calling the 4bet pre flop was justified. I might bet this flop... But other than that I can't fault any of the play.
The river card was a terrible thing for Toth as it was exactly the perfect storm card for Elky. Not just that it gave him the nuts... but it pretty much guaranteed 57 to be the ONLY hand Elky could win with, except for some weird queen.
Seems to be Elky got extraordinarily lucky in this hand... in fact about as lucky as you ever get in this game.
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bubonicplay
Rock Star
Silver Level
Sorry but this is just plain wrong.
Kasanova King
Visionary
Silver Level