Makwa
Undesirable Predator
Silver Level
Ya really LOL, impersonating my dog is no way to make a living!! Here is the real Elvis:
Ya really LOL, impersonating my dog is no way to make a living!! Here is the real Elvis:
MrPokerVerse
Legend
Bronze Level
Ole addage if you don't have something nice to say then say nothing at all. There is a place for everything and trash talking at poker table is not the place.
Save it for your friends at closing time at the bar when everyone is too shit faced to remember what the hell you said and chances are they will forget too.
Save it for your friends at closing time at the bar when everyone is too shit faced to remember what the hell you said and chances are they will forget too.
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
You understand that a lot of players will still find those comments nasty, even though you smiley faced them, right? Also, regardless of the spirit of the comment you're still drawing attention to the mistakes of bad players, making it more likely that they'll try to stop making those mistakes. That would be a Bad Thing.
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
I don`t think the bad players will think "I best try to improve my game"
While I`m playing and if someone makes a stupid play I will always check official poker rankings or sharkscope. It is very, very, very rare that these people are down as anything less than losing players.
I think that because on this site a lot of people are looking to improve their game we give far too much credit to other players (I would also guess that a high % are here for the freerolls)
fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
I think the main point here is that even if only one in 10-100-1000 etc. is prompted to think about improving, isnt that over all a -ev?
I know that I was a total donkey and was berated, and at some point a guy made a SS comment about my stats, I looked myself up - I didnt know what SS was - and that led me here and so on.
I am still a total donkey, but thats another topic.,....
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
So what would needling them achieve?
If someone calls you a donkey / fish . retard etc, does that make you fold more or call more or raise more?
If that person cant answer that question, they cant exploitatively needle you as they cant predict your response.
If someone cant predict your response, they're effectively playing mind games with themselves.
IMO, trash talking as a strategy at anything other than nose bleed stakes is akin to putting nice alloys on a clapped out old banger; it is no where near as cool as you think and the only real performance increases are in your own mind.
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bigphatmike
Enthusiast
Silver Level
D00D! trash talkin is the worst. When someone calls you a donk or a fish or a noob, i can understand that, and its all in the game and everything, doenst really put me on tilt, however when these kids start screaming and yelling over their keyboard thining of every cuss word they can think off, its just down right un acceptable. Trash talking is horrible poker etiquette and i have no respect for ppl that do. Would really call someone a 4 word derrogatory about their mom to their face live? heck no because they would start a fight with you and it would not be pretty, all the ppl cursing and calling other players names should just be flat out muted nobody should have to deal with it. idc if you thik it puts them on tilt, it doesnt it more or less puts yourself on tilt thinking the world is agaisnt you. If you cant take the variance in poker dont take it out on your fellow poker mates . JUST DONT PLAY!I got to admit it, I trash talk all the time
For me I feel it works in the following ways....
I`m sure the list goes on and on.
- After a bad beat - it makes me feel better to vent
- When I have sucked out on a decent player - I`m trying to push that person into making a mistake
- A big stack `bully` - so that they will call my raises when I have a good hand to show they won`t let me talk to them that way
- Someone who has lost a hand to another player cause I want them to make more bad plays
Would be interested to know your thoughts as to if you think it is a good `tool`
'nuff said
TTYL
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bigphatmike
Enthusiast
Silver Level
One other thing, sorry if i sound like im ranting, but i am really get annoyed when someone gets a bad beat, or a fish gets elimated, someone is abusiively talking trash to him/her after a suckout and the "lol" comes out. it happens ALL the time at most medium and low lvl stakes. its get to be a pain in the A.
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
I didnt say I did needle them.
I said if they make a bad call I check there stats. The point I was making is that a bad player normally stays a bad player.
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
Obviously NOT `nuff said`
I have tried to say so many time since I started this threat, I am not on about being abusive, although from time to time I might, depending on their response.
So `trash talking` is possibly the wrong phrase
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
What??
I got to admit it, I trash talk all the time
For me I feel it works in the following ways....
I`m sure the list goes on and on.
- After a bad beat - it makes me feel better to vent
- When I have sucked out on a decent player - I`m trying to push that person into making a mistake
- A big stack `bully` - so that they will call my raises when I have a good hand to show they won`t let me talk to them that way
- Someone who has lost a hand to another player cause I want them to make more bad plays
Would be interested to know your thoughts as to if you think it is a good `tool`
If you aren't needling them what exactly are you doing?
- Asking them out on dates and stuff?
- Offering to transfer money to their accounts?
- Congratulating them on a nice win?
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OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
See below from earlier in the thread - I'd certainly call it needling but don't forget, he's putting a smiley face at the end so that makes it totally OK...
First of all, even if it doesn't result in them going out to buy a poker book or join a forum or take on a coach, you could still be encouraging them to improve their game and even pointing them in the right direction. Your comments above, for example, boil down to telling these players "you're making a mistake by calling too much". Even if it is followed by a smiley face.
Second, you know that using Sharkscope / OPR in-game is considered cheating by most major sites, right?
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
By checking sharkscope or OPR I find out what they are like as players. I don`t `needle` them about this. This answer was in response to people saying words to the effect of if you trash talk the bad players they will suddenly stop and think about their game. I was saying that when someone make a real donk call - and I mean a donk call - I check their stats. 999 times out of 1000 they have a - ROI.
So my point was they won`t change the way they play.
But yes, I try to needle them other ways.
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
Your first point - see the last post.
I didnt know it was seen as cheating to check those sites. I thought it was seen as bad form if u have a go at players based on their results on these sites?
If this is seen as cheating, how do they look at things like `poker tracker` ?
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
I dont get it.
If you say nothing they play bad, but you think that needling them gives you some kind of advantage?
I think your typing skills would be better used on note taking.
There was a guy who felt that trying to sexually intimidate women and stare at mens crotches was the key to beating live play.
When someone tilts they play their hand in a way which they would not play it if they were thinking rationally. There are two main forms of tilt, those who fold too easily and those who refuse to fold. How do you
a) identify the type who will call from the type who will fold.
b) play your own hand differently given that they are now calling too much or folding too much.
c) how does this effect your preflop range?
d) how does it effect your postflop range on a dry board you hit?
e) a dry board you miss?
f) a wet board you hit?
g) a wet board you miss?
If you are attempting to tilt someone for your own advantage, you have to know how to manipulate your own range to benifit from it. If your play basically stays the same then how can manipulating their range help?
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
No, my point stands - in your example "trash talking" comments you are effectively telling fish that they are making a mistake by calling too much. Maybe some of them are too stupid to take it on board, but I guarantee others will change their play as a result. Even bad players know how to take advice and you have no logical basis for assuming they won't.
OPR / Sharkscope are very different to things like Poker Tracker because Poker Tracker only logs hands that you actually play. OPR / Sharkscope on the other hand give you access to huge third-party databases and results of games that you never played in. That's why it's against the Terms of Service of pretty much every site to use OPR or Sharkscope in-game: having access to information from games you never played gives you an unfair advantage at the table.
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baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
I don't really love the argument for trash talking but if someone plays suboptimally, their equity (especially in a tournament) doesn't vanish into thin air, it goes to the other players in the game.
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Bingo.
I said it before, I will say it again. Most of the time (at live poker especially) the guy doing the trash talking is telling me truckloads more about his game than he is affecting mine.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Yes but the play sub-optimally by default!
This is why I think it may have some merit at really high stakes where your causing a player to play badly by doing it.
At small stakes you dont need to say a thing to induce bad calls or raises!
What if you put the guy on tilt, he shoves and someone other than you had a hand they can go with? In a 6 max game at the beginning of any hand if you were to play a game called "do I have the best hand?" if you do you win $5 if one of the other 5 players has the best hand you lose $5, would you seriously take your own side in that bet?
R
RVladimiro
Visionary
Silver Level
I don't agree that trash talk delivers anything but can't the chat be used in specific moments? I've used one liners to make maniacs shove the river when I had the nuts. Would they have shoved anyway? Maybe they would but whatever I wrote, it was with the purpose of having that result.
Does that mean that of all the times I did it they would've had the same exact response because they play sub-optimal anyway?
Does that mean that of all the times I did it they would've had the same exact response because they play sub-optimal anyway?
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
I think that they would have done exactly the same thing regardless.
You got a manic to shove... thats what manics do!
Ill also give you the easiest read in the world.. noone needles when they want a fold, only a call.
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RVladimiro
Visionary
Silver Level
Priceless!
Yeah I think in the end you are right. I've used the chat with maniacs but I'm trying to use bet sizing to induce behaviors. Not that easy, very dependant of villains and at 2NL a table changes in 15 mins because people are shoving and going broke and tilting.
Enough babbling... thanks for the tip.