tbdbitl
Legend
Silver Level
I can't think of a single casino cash game that I have played in where the player that is shipped the pot after the other player mucks HAS to show his cards as detroitjunkie describes.
As for tournaments, I believe that the wsop is one of the only tournaments that require what junkie mentions. But, the WSOP does not follow TDA, they have their own rules.
In fact at my local casino, I had the same situation in a tournament there last Friday. I was NOT required to show after the player I called mucked. I would have had the floor been called and they ruled I had to, but they were not called. But since my casino goes by TDA, they wouldn't have made me.
From TDA Rules :
"16: Non All-In Showdowns
A: In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled or discarded, the TD may enforce an order of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If there was no bet on the final street, the player who would act first if it were a betting round must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand in razz, etc.).
B: A non all-in showdown is uncontested if all but one player mucks face down without tabling. The last player with live cards wins and he is not required to show his cards."
As for tournaments, I believe that the wsop is one of the only tournaments that require what junkie mentions. But, the WSOP does not follow TDA, they have their own rules.
In fact at my local casino, I had the same situation in a tournament there last Friday. I was NOT required to show after the player I called mucked. I would have had the floor been called and they ruled I had to, but they were not called. But since my casino goes by TDA, they wouldn't have made me.
From TDA Rules :
"16: Non All-In Showdowns
A: In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled or discarded, the TD may enforce an order of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If there was no bet on the final street, the player who would act first if it were a betting round must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand in razz, etc.).
B: A non all-in showdown is uncontested if all but one player mucks face down without tabling. The last player with live cards wins and he is not required to show his cards."
intents09
Legend
Silver Level
Wow took a while but the answer got there. Last to bet/raise is first to show, so when checked down on the river, as played, first to act is supposed to show, then the opponent(s) have the option from there. Here you actually could have been asked to show, and I will say, I may not always say something because the opponent is, in fact, conceding the pot, but when that is done to me I am bothered they didn't show because I did pay for the information. Even though the fold gives me an idea what they could have been playing and I win the pot, the hand is confirmed and pinpointed when it's shown/seen. If you wanted to see to verify you were right then you needed to show first, and then he would have been able to decide to show or muck and obviously would have had to show the winner to win the pot.
C
Chemist
Legend
Silver Level
It has become common for many tournaments.
Not only WSOP but also EPT, LAPT, UKIPT, APPT, PCA etc. and I think it is becoming more common.
Excuse me what do you mean showing out of turn???
It was REQUIRED for this tournament which was following the same WSOP rule that you had previously talked about.
He tried to muck when I said call.
My hand was only shown as required in order to claim the pot. Otherwise there is no way I would have shown the whole table how lightly I was calling and how confident I was in my reads.
His hand didn't really have to be shown as nobody had challenged it, but when it was exposed he claimed he had Phil Ivey like misread his hand and only just noticed that he had actually caught something.
Online of course the computer would have awarded Ivey the pot.
In theory with a checked down river the first to act should turn over their cards and the second to act should know whether their hand is better and turn it over to claim the pot if it is better; (unless they were colluding and trying to pass chips when the second player might see their hand is stronger and attempt to muck in order to pass chips to his friend), which is why the other players have the right to challenge the mucked hand.
Ivey wasn't colluding he simply hadn't noticed the flush.
In this case everyone accepted that the aces were good and moved on.
If Ivey's cards had been exposed at the time then an adjudicator (dealer, floor manager, tournament director) would have to decide what action to take in that particular instance, which could be to allow the action to stand and carry on with verbal or physical declarations considered binding, or go with the cards like a computer would, or even issue a penalty for an unintentional collusive act.
In my opinion the declaration should stand, with the loss of chips and the public embarrassment being suitable penalty for the mistake.
But the only opinion that counts is that of the manager or director on duty at the time.
As with any good sport the umpire or referee's decision on the day is the final word regardless of any rule books.
But thank goodness Sporting decisions aren't dragged through the courts by lawyers. (Oh dear Mr Ivey), (but then again, fair enough Punto Banco isn't a sport).
detroitjunkie
Visionary
Silver Level
I stand corrected - as of 2016 the WSOP no longer demands you show your hand if you have the only live hand remaining, even in tournaments. This was a rule change this year due to player complaints. Also gone is the ability to ask to see a hand if you no longer have a live hand, and only if collusion is expected, and with a floor present. Looks as if the players won one here, as they typically do.
Any casinos which operate under Caesars Entertainment (which are a ton) will have already adapted the new rules. So yes, now there are very few casinos that will use the must show rule in cash or tournaments anymore if all others fold (however, you will now more than likely get a penalty if you muck at showdown when the other person asks you to show)
Any casinos which operate under Caesars Entertainment (which are a ton) will have already adapted the new rules. So yes, now there are very few casinos that will use the must show rule in cash or tournaments anymore if all others fold (however, you will now more than likely get a penalty if you muck at showdown when the other person asks you to show)
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Wow, I'm surprised to hear that. I know a lot of rooms probably didn't enforce the "must show cards to claim any part of the pot at showdown" rule, but many had that rule on the books and I've always thought it's for good reason...
Senneville
Visionary
Silver Level
C
CSINSC
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have to disagree with you on a few points. U say at the WSOP that U must show on the river & that isn't correct. I did see later on U posted a retraction of your statement saying you were incorrect. For many years I have watched the WSOP on TV & not once have I seen it where a player HAD to show his cards on river after everyone has mucked. I am glad he admitted his mistake.
Also if the player wants to see the person's mucked hand that mucked hand does NOT become live again. If the hand is easily retrievable from the muck then the dealer will retrieve the cards tap the cards face down into the muck pile & declare that hand dead & then flip over the cards.
Also if the player wants to see the person's mucked hand that mucked hand does NOT become live again. If the hand is easily retrievable from the muck then the dealer will retrieve the cards tap the cards face down into the muck pile & declare that hand dead & then flip over the cards.
C
CSINSC
Rock Star
Silver Level
There are a few things I will discuss here. You mucked your hand therefore it is DEAD. The ONLY time your hand can go into the muck pile & still be live is if the dealer accidentally grabs your cards & mucks them. If that happens & your cards can be easily retrievable from the muck then your cards can be live again. That is why it is IMPERATIVE to always protect your cards at all costs.
Since your opponents cards were the only live hand left he automatically wins the pot & does NOT have to show. If he is inexplicably made to show then you have run into a card game that is extremely poorly run by people who don't know the rules of the great game of poker.
Since your opponents cards were the only live hand left he automatically wins the pot & does NOT have to show. If he is inexplicably made to show then you have run into a card game that is extremely poorly run by people who don't know the rules of the great game of poker.
C
CSINSC
Rock Star
Silver Level
I kindly, but vehemently disagree with you saying that U MUST show & U don't have the right to muck. Whenever it is your turn U always the option to muck. If someone says before U muck "Dealer I want to see that hand" then it is the dealer's job to make sure your cards are not able to be thrown into the muck pile by usually blocking the muck pile by putting his hand over the muck pile OR putting his whole arm on the table to prevent the path of your cards into the muck pile. Other than that if it is your turn & U don't want to show your cards & give the pot up then that is your choice to muck
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
You do accept though that, for better or worse, it was the rule up in a lot of rooms for many years, and it probably still is the rule in some of them, right?
And more to the point, that it is/was a rule designed to prevent soft play and collusion (like the failing to raise the nuts on the river when last to act rule)?
mbrenneman0
Legend
Silver Level
I'm wondering why hero mucked in the first place... If you play to showdown then you should showdown. How do we know hero lost? Maybe your jack high beat his 10 high? Crazier things have been known to happen, but since you mucked, you just threw away your chance at winning the pot.
If you get caught bluffing then good! Now people are going to loosen up and tilt against you. Your muck is purely negative EV
If you get caught bluffing then good! Now people are going to loosen up and tilt against you. Your muck is purely negative EV
detroitjunkie
Visionary
Silver Level
If I have to show you the rule book I will, as I have worked at WSOP the last two years 2014,2015 - however, THIS year only has the rule changed.
You will never see it on tv because they will never make a point of 'showing it on camera' because it is pointless.
I PROMISE you if the player with the only live hand remaining requests to see a mucked hand it is live.
Do not post that you know the rules on book unless you KNOW - do not use tv as an example, or your local casino. My point was for casinos that use WSOP rules.
Are they always enforced? maybe not, but they are on book (well were until earlier this year)
C&P from WSOP 2014 rules
71. Showdown: In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled, the Floor People may enforce an order of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If there was no bet on the final street, then the player who would be first to act in a betting round must table first (i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand showing in razz, etc.) Players not still in possession of their cards at showdown, or who have mucked face down without tabling their cards, lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand. The winning hand must be shown to claim the pot. If a participant refuses to show their hand and intentionally mucks his or her hand, the participant in violation will receive a penalty, in accordance with Rules 39, 107 and 108.
I will post more if you wish, 2015 reads almost exactly the same, 2016 adds the phrase "unless it is the only live hand remaining"
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detroitjunkie
Visionary
Silver Level
In TOURNAMENTS, any player with cards at showdown may request to see a " CALLED HAND ". The hand is “ LIVE “ and shall receive the pot if determined to be the winning hand. To receive the pot, a winning hand must be shown when called by one or more hands after the last card has been delivered.
this is C&P from dealers handbook, for you other non believers
of course if you want photo evidence just let me know
not sure if I specified this particular rule about the mucked hand being live was for tourneys only, but it is
this is C&P from dealers handbook, for you other non believers
of course if you want photo evidence just let me know
not sure if I specified this particular rule about the mucked hand being live was for tourneys only, but it is
C
CSINSC
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have asked to see other people's cards when I thought collusion was happening. When the river card was dealt I informed the dealer I wanted to see a player's cards so don't let him muck. They called over the floor & even though I was allowed to do that the floor informed me this was NOT a rule to be exercised often. He wouldn't allow it many more times.
I still stand steadfast that it was NOT mandatory that he automatically flip over his cards even if his was the only live hand. I truly believe that I should ONLY be able to see his cards if I asked. I think it's utterly ridiculous & slows the game down tremendously if everyone still in the hand is made to show your cards at every single showdown. Whatever poker room that may still do this is quite inept.
I still stand steadfast that it was NOT mandatory that he automatically flip over his cards even if his was the only live hand. I truly believe that I should ONLY be able to see his cards if I asked. I think it's utterly ridiculous & slows the game down tremendously if everyone still in the hand is made to show your cards at every single showdown. Whatever poker room that may still do this is quite inept.
C
CSINSC
Rock Star
Silver Level
Well SIR I do know & why not use TV as an example since it was showing WSOP events & WSOP events is what you were referring to. Since it is a rule it should ALWAYS be followed for uniformity across all stages of poker & poker rooms. What gets people in trouble is when a rule is NOT enforced. For example on Friday night I am not forced to show my hand, but the very next night in the same poker room at the same table I am FORCED to show my hand. I have had rules that were enforced/not enforced a cornucopia of times & it gets frustrating when a dealer won't do his job. It sounds like U dealt at the WSOP so I desperately hope you are 100% uniform in your enforcing of the rules every single time or otherwise it is the most unfair thing you could do to a player.
You also say they won't make it a point of not showing it on TV because it's pointless. Why is it pointless to show the rules of poker being enforced on TV. Why is it pointless to show the actions of a normal poker hand on TV?
I will emphasize again that I have watched a plethora of WSOP events & not once has the ONLY live remaining hand ever been made to show.
You also say they won't make it a point of not showing it on TV because it's pointless. Why is it pointless to show the rules of poker being enforced on TV. Why is it pointless to show the actions of a normal poker hand on TV?
I will emphasize again that I have watched a plethora of WSOP events & not once has the ONLY live remaining hand ever been made to show.
P
par
Enthusiast
Silver Level
This is what I think, you are asking to look at his cards for free, when he does not need to show you.
detroitjunkie
Visionary
Silver Level
I am always 100% consistent. And the rule states that in order to win a pot you must show. Not that everyone at showdown has to show...just the winner. But its moot now anyways but it was the rule
Why I say dont use tv...because first tv shows only a handful of hands and this is somewhat rare anyways. Most of the time the tv is also showing the players face with a bunch of graphics and typically is not showing the table. With all this being said you would probably never be able to even tell if the player showed it or not. If you can find an example where you are 100% sure they didnt show in this situation id love to see it.
detroitjunkie
Visionary
Silver Level
however I will say this, not all WSOP dealers know the rules, about half of them each year are first time dealers, and since most of the time no dealer is at the same table for over 30 minutes you will get great deals of inconsistency. this is a growing problem for WSOP and other Vegas summer series. In fact in 2015 they made 'checking in the dark' illegal, but almost no dealer enforced it, and those that did were chastised by the players. Now in 2016 the rule is only for tournaments, but I doubt its being enforced,
Also, about asking to see a mucked hand, yes you can not over use this, or you can get a penalty
Also, about asking to see a mucked hand, yes you can not over use this, or you can get a penalty
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OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
OK that one needs some more details to understand properly:
- How many people were still in the hand?
- Did YOU still have a live hand at this point?
- Did you ask to see the cards before or after the final betting round was complete?
The floor was correct, it's something you're allowed to do but it's also a rule you're expected not to abuse by invoking it repeatedly.
Detroitjunkie is right, you generally don't see the nitty gritty of live poker dealing procedures and rules enforcement on TV. And in some cases (more on this below), you'll actually see them bending or ignoring some rules specifically because the hand is on television.
The main reason you don't see that kind of stuff on TV is because televised poker is meant as entertainment. Nitty gritty rules enforcement is boring. The casual viewing public, especially the WSOP audience on a mainstream channel like ESPN, want to see big all ins, sick calls and crazy bluffs.
So unless it's something that goes majorly wrong or creates a lot of drama (that famous hand from several years back where the player called a shove and the dealer mucked her hand, for example) there's no reason for them to make a big deal out of who did or didn't show first or whatever.
For what it's worth one thing that you WILL consistently see on TV (because it's something the players do, not the dealers) is string betting. It's against the rules in every poker room in the world as far as I'm aware, but you very rarely see it enforced. Maybe (this goes to my point above) that's because enforcing it 100% in a televised table would make for bad TV. But if all rules should be enforced uniformly 100% of the time, surely that's of great concern to you too?
detroitjunkie
Visionary
Silver Level
Yes the final tables of events do have some special rules, and the televised ones even more so, however the are so horrifically slow, its very unlikely anything major goes wrong. But these are on the book, so its not that some are not enforced they are just different rule sets, as many rules are different between live and tournament, at WSOP different levels of the tournament follow different rules - maybe not the string bet thing, but I have seen rooms before claim that string bets are only called by the players and not the dealer
the different rules are not that extreme, an example would be no headsets once you break the money bubble, and so forth
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