shinedown.45
Legend
Silver Level
I define gambling as putting a dollar amount down on the outcome of one solitary motion in hopes of doubling or more on your money.
Jack Daniels
Charcoal Mellowed
Silver Level
Well my initial vote (based on what I thought the OP was initially asking) was "no". But really the question is not open to all of the interpretations we are making; the question is simple and clear. The question is "Is poker gambling?" That question, as written, specifically asks whether poker is part of a certain classification (gambling) not whether or not it is a game of skill or game of chance like most everyone is trying to argue. Everyone here that actually understands poker would agree that it is a game of skill with an element of luck and is not simply a game of chance.
The definition of "gambling" is the conscious wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. The definition of gambling does not account for the amount of luck or skill required; it simply requires wagering to take place on something where the end result can have differnet outcomes without guarantee (even if one outcome is favored over another it is still uncertain). And to Zach's point earlier about knowing what the cards will be in the long run, I have to disagree. You can live to be 1000 years old and play 534 trillion hands of poker, but you will never know what the card will be. All you'll know with absolute certainty is what the card should be x% of the time and that is what is being wagered on.
So as a simple question, yes, the game of poker is gambling by definition. Playing the stock market is gambling. Wagering on a football game is gambling however playing in a football game is not gambling because there is no wagering of money or material value (just the concept of the team's record, etc). Going for a walk is not gambling. Making wagers on the outcome of a walk that someone is going on is gambling. Most things in life are not gambling by definition simply because there is no conscious/intentional wagering of money or material value. On the flipside, anything can have a gambing aspect to it once the wagering takes place on the outcome.
Chess was an earlier example. Chess is, without a doubt, a game governed by skill. However, there is still an element of uncertainty in every game played. That uncertainty varies greatly based on the players, but it exists. If I played a grandmaster, I'd surely have my ass handed to me is under 25 moves. But if the #1 and #3 ranked players in the world played, then the that uncertainty grows significantly and the #3 ranked player could conceivably beat the #1 ranked player. Look at Olympic divers or gymnasts. These are people at the top of their sport in the world, but so many times the final results for the top finishers will come down to hundreths or thousandths of a point. But again, none of these things are gambling in or of themselves simply because there are uncertainties.
I guess what it ultimately comes down to is whether the wagering aspect is an inherent part of the activity or not. blackjack, craps, poker, etc all have wagering as an inherent part of the activity. This is what makes is some form of "gambling". Walking down the street or things vaporizing and appearing on Mars do not inherently include wagering as part of those activities, therefore they are not gambling but are instead activities upon which wagering or gambling can occur.
I think it can be a subtle difference, but every example in this thread clearly falls into one category or the other. Now having said all that, I think the debate is useless overall simply because it serves no purpose. The argument of legality in most jurisdiction that I'm aware of is not about whether poker is gambling or not, it's about whether it is a game of chance or skill.
I'm now tired of typing.
The definition of "gambling" is the conscious wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. The definition of gambling does not account for the amount of luck or skill required; it simply requires wagering to take place on something where the end result can have differnet outcomes without guarantee (even if one outcome is favored over another it is still uncertain). And to Zach's point earlier about knowing what the cards will be in the long run, I have to disagree. You can live to be 1000 years old and play 534 trillion hands of poker, but you will never know what the card will be. All you'll know with absolute certainty is what the card should be x% of the time and that is what is being wagered on.
So as a simple question, yes, the game of poker is gambling by definition. Playing the stock market is gambling. Wagering on a football game is gambling however playing in a football game is not gambling because there is no wagering of money or material value (just the concept of the team's record, etc). Going for a walk is not gambling. Making wagers on the outcome of a walk that someone is going on is gambling. Most things in life are not gambling by definition simply because there is no conscious/intentional wagering of money or material value. On the flipside, anything can have a gambing aspect to it once the wagering takes place on the outcome.
Chess was an earlier example. Chess is, without a doubt, a game governed by skill. However, there is still an element of uncertainty in every game played. That uncertainty varies greatly based on the players, but it exists. If I played a grandmaster, I'd surely have my ass handed to me is under 25 moves. But if the #1 and #3 ranked players in the world played, then the that uncertainty grows significantly and the #3 ranked player could conceivably beat the #1 ranked player. Look at Olympic divers or gymnasts. These are people at the top of their sport in the world, but so many times the final results for the top finishers will come down to hundreths or thousandths of a point. But again, none of these things are gambling in or of themselves simply because there are uncertainties.
I guess what it ultimately comes down to is whether the wagering aspect is an inherent part of the activity or not. blackjack, craps, poker, etc all have wagering as an inherent part of the activity. This is what makes is some form of "gambling". Walking down the street or things vaporizing and appearing on Mars do not inherently include wagering as part of those activities, therefore they are not gambling but are instead activities upon which wagering or gambling can occur.
I think it can be a subtle difference, but every example in this thread clearly falls into one category or the other. Now having said all that, I think the debate is useless overall simply because it serves no purpose. The argument of legality in most jurisdiction that I'm aware of is not about whether poker is gambling or not, it's about whether it is a game of chance or skill.
I'm now tired of typing.
JimmyBrizzy
Visionary
Silver Level
Haha, I love this!
P
p0cketAz
Enthusiast
Silver Level
It varies on the player(s) at the table and your skill level...
In reality you should be making educated decisions based on your whole cards and the players at the table
I tend to look at it as an investment into the pot... and is the risk worth the reward where the majority of players throw there money in and "hope for the best"
to quote rounders... why do the same players end up with most of the money in the long run?
In reality you should be making educated decisions based on your whole cards and the players at the table
I tend to look at it as an investment into the pot... and is the risk worth the reward where the majority of players throw there money in and "hope for the best"
to quote rounders... why do the same players end up with most of the money in the long run?
U
underdog140
Legend
Silver Level
off course its gambling dont know why anyone would think its not.Yes there is skill envolved but like I said in an earlyer post you are risking money to win more money.Even if the odds off you winning the pot are 70 to 30 percent you can still lose your money that you are "gambling" with to win more money.Where do poker games take place in a casino,what do you do in a casino?You Gamble.
U
underdog140
Legend
Silver Level
Who saying anything about anything being illegal?Off course trading stocks shouldnt be illegal and neither should playing poker online.
Its your money and if you want to gamble with it weather its playing poker or any other way off gambling go ahead, good luck to you.Everyone that understands poker will agree with you that there is alot off skill needed to be a good poker player but all the skill in the world isnt going to help you when a donkey hits his 2 outer on the river and takes your cash So there is luck envolved so it is gambling.
T
thejuanupsman
Rock Star
Silver Level
This thread reminds me of another argument people had on a site that features nude models. One side was convinced it was art, the other convinced it was porn. And in the middle were those who could see that it was both. That the terms are not exclusive and you can have pornographic art and artistic porn. A similar tension seems to exist here where people seem to think Poker is not gambling because it involves skill. It does not matter. It's a game of skill that also happens to be gambling. The terms are not mutually exclusive. And yes, you could make the argument that everything then becomes gambling. Sure. But the argument reminds me of the Biology teacher who argued that all life was a terminal illness since it eventually led to inevitable death. It may be true but it's still silly.
blazin321
Enthusiast
Silver Level
So the people with this skill arent gambling. The people without it are. lol wut
G
glworden
Visionary
Silver Level
Vote at new poll
Point taken. New poll is here:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/poll-poker-primarily-game-skill-chance-134932/
Point taken. New poll is here:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/poll-poker-primarily-game-skill-chance-134932/
Jungl3 Jim
Rising Star
Silver Level
I'd have to disagree with that.
Every time a player hits the field, he gambles his body in an attempt to earn more through sign ups, sponsorships etc
Long has it been since a player actually played football for the love of the game.
You could apply this to the NBA and many other sports
They're just gambling on the next season rather than the current tourney
I guess I just contradicted myself
Looks like I'm torn on the subject
silverslugger33
Rock Star
Silver Level
Poker is not gambling. Poker is a game based on your skill as compared to the other opponents. There are many other games where luck is involved. Let's compare it to football:
In football, an umpire can make a bad call which can cause you to lose even if the player on the other team makes a bad play (yes, i know that challenges are allowed, but even so the call is missed some of the time). In poker, the opponent can get a lucky card on the river, which can cause you to lose even if the other player makes a bad play.
In poker, you have to figure out which strategy gives you the best chance to win (i.e., which players to start, which plays to run, etc.). In poker, you also have to figure out which strategy gives you the best chance (aggressive, conservative, moderate).
I could go on, but I think you get the point.
In football, an umpire can make a bad call which can cause you to lose even if the player on the other team makes a bad play (yes, i know that challenges are allowed, but even so the call is missed some of the time). In poker, the opponent can get a lucky card on the river, which can cause you to lose even if the other player makes a bad play.
In poker, you have to figure out which strategy gives you the best chance to win (i.e., which players to start, which plays to run, etc.). In poker, you also have to figure out which strategy gives you the best chance (aggressive, conservative, moderate).
I could go on, but I think you get the point.
U
underdog140
Legend
Silver Level
I cant see how anyone thinks its not gambling.Yes the more skills you have the better chance you have at winning but no matter how much skill you have skill doesnt help when that donkey catches his 2 outer on the river.Even if you have an 80% chance off winning the pot there is still a 20% chance you wont.This is still a gamble just not as big off a gamble as the other guy would have to take with the 20% chance to win.Look Gamble up in dictionary and see what it says.............Risking something to gain something..........this is what we do playing poker risking our money to gain more.Even if the risk is small and you have odds on your side its still a risk/Gamble,,,,,,,,,, any two cards can be beat.
wolfstew
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Poker is not gambling,it is a skill.. roulette is gambling,slots is gambling,betting your money against the house is gambling.Although a large percentage of people play it like gambling or lotto or bingo. poker in its true form is a skill and should be played as such.. and in saying all that.. i will still try and suck out on you..
spranger
Rock Star
Platinum Level
Poker IS gambling. Although unlike most games and other situations, the edge is different for almost everyone. Some people have almost no chance to come out on top in the long run, some have a huge chance and make tons of money, but they were never guaranteed that money, they gambled to gain it. And yes believe it or not, I guarantee there has been a fish or two who have become set for life from poker. (Jamie Gold, that Asian guy at the Main Event, Moneymaker)
Even casinos are gambling. I'm sure some of you have heard about the casino in the 60's or 70's where a man put down $1000 on roulette (he was either super rich back then, or highly intoxicated, becuase this is huge for back then) on a single number, he hit the number and got paid $35000, he let it ride and hit the number again, getting paid 1.225 million, he let it ride and hit it again, the casino shut down that night. The casino was gambling and LOST although the probability of that happening was 1/38 x 1/38 x 1/38 = 1/54,872. NO AMOUNT OF EDGE can stop something from being gambling, not even poker.
And walking across the street is of course gambling, has someone in the past been hit by a bus walking across the street? Heck yes, it happened to them, it could happen to you, you gambler.
Stocks are gambling, Pete Rose was gambling, that Ref in the NBA was gambling even though he could control the outcome of the game himself directly.
The fact is that if poker wasn't gambling, there would be no debate about who was the best in the world. It would be clear, they would have never lost. As Phil Hellmuth says "If it weren't for luck, I'd win them all!" Sounds like a man who's gambling to me. He has a huge edge over the long run, but he's still a gamblin' man.
Gambling is everywhere, we all do it, and long live Poker!cguru:
Even casinos are gambling. I'm sure some of you have heard about the casino in the 60's or 70's where a man put down $1000 on roulette (he was either super rich back then, or highly intoxicated, becuase this is huge for back then) on a single number, he hit the number and got paid $35000, he let it ride and hit the number again, getting paid 1.225 million, he let it ride and hit it again, the casino shut down that night. The casino was gambling and LOST although the probability of that happening was 1/38 x 1/38 x 1/38 = 1/54,872. NO AMOUNT OF EDGE can stop something from being gambling, not even poker.
And walking across the street is of course gambling, has someone in the past been hit by a bus walking across the street? Heck yes, it happened to them, it could happen to you, you gambler.
Stocks are gambling, Pete Rose was gambling, that Ref in the NBA was gambling even though he could control the outcome of the game himself directly.
The fact is that if poker wasn't gambling, there would be no debate about who was the best in the world. It would be clear, they would have never lost. As Phil Hellmuth says "If it weren't for luck, I'd win them all!" Sounds like a man who's gambling to me. He has a huge edge over the long run, but he's still a gamblin' man.
Gambling is everywhere, we all do it, and long live Poker!
cguru:
D
deli10
Enthusiast
Silver Level
i believe that if its a freeroll then its not!
i am not sure if anyone agree with me.
but in general it is for sure gambling.. but one of the safest gambling games i would say.. it aint roulette thats for sure so u cant categorize both in the same area
i am not sure if anyone agree with me.
but in general it is for sure gambling.. but one of the safest gambling games i would say.. it aint roulette thats for sure
so u cant categorize both in the same area
W
whiskers
Enthusiast
Silver Level
The better you become by playing poker in freerolls(where nothing comes out of your pocket) the less and less it becomes a gamble when you play with real money. So a very smart player really doesn't risk anything.
So smart players = no gambling and dumb players = gambling. :icon_king
So smart players = no gambling and dumb players = gambling. :icon_king