Freeroll culture has hurt poker....

[A2345Razz]

What does the public's image have to do with anything?

In the US, a whole heck of a lot.

Federal and state regulation of legalized poker both online and live for one thing.

I personally would love to have nationwide online regulated and lightly taxed poker, but that's just me.

I also would like to be able to play and/or set up games in cheap/affordable locations and not pay excessive licensure fees that pertain to "casinos".
Public perception of poker has a dramatic effect on all of those things.

In poker you really can win, but only if you have practice and skill. Most of people can not win because they are very lazy and don't want to study and hope only for luck. Every poker player can became millionaire, but not everyone became.
Someone make millions in business, someone in poker, that is the same, but how many miilionaries in our world?

Every poker player cannot make millions, no. People with an IQ of 100 cannot make millions in poker by studying harder than other people and grinding. That ship has sailed.

100%! First of all poker is a hobby. Of cause, it can help you to take some little money. But like hobby this game can give people much more than a way to earn on living.

A healthy way to see poker right now for MOST people. A fun hobby which, like every hobby, will have costs and benefits associated with it, but will give me enjoyment. Poker is a hobby that can eventually actually make you money!!!

lmao pretty funny man.

I try browski!

Obviously deposits are important, where would the money originally come from? Air?

My position is, if deposits get depleted (mainly through rake, which is normally by far the highest "win rate" on any table) without giving players a realistic chance they will give up and not return. Newbies don't really pay attention to cost of rake but they still feel its bite.

Even entertainment has "value for money spent" coefficient and poker's is pretty low compared to MMORPGs and such where you can have a lot of fun relatively cheaply and not feel like a loser when you get fleeced.

When things slow down there are 2 strategies that poker sites can employ:
1) reduce rake and stimulate economy like this (this is similar to government reducing taxes to jump start economy)
2) go into "full fleece" mode and just squeeze out what they can

Amaya (PokerStars) went into 2) but had to back down temporarily, still promotions are now total garbage and they are looking for ways to continue increasing their profits (= squeezing the players dry any way possible).

Eventually best hope for players/poker economy is for a new competitor to emerge with a realistic business model (= act like any other normal business and accept first few years will not be instantly profitable and will need investment into market share development) and challenge them.

I agree we need to offer good value for the entertainment dollar and that new depositors are vital to the economy.

I was outspoken on here and battled a lot of people when Amayastars tried to push through those changes. Go back and look......I am there screaming louder than anyone and helping to get the word out about the sit outs.

Complaining about the freeroll culture and rake isn't mutually exclusive.

I'm not a fan of redepositing, but that came after going around $500 in the red by getting into a cycle of bad brm + fishy play. I got some entertainment value from it I guess, but it was mostly tuition. Pain is a great teacher lol.

I think making a reasonable initial deposit (instead of several unreasonably small ones) only makes sense for a player. If it helps the poker economy too, then that's great.

I don't think we have much disagreement on that, but from time to time a small/moderately sized deposit might be necessary for even net winning players. Guys, that's poker, there is variance and the skill edges aren't as huge as they were in the boom.

Full disclosure it's been like 2.5-3 yrs since i've deposited I think,but I probably will soon to put money on ACR or Bovada.

 

[Sil3ntness]

I never deposited on ACR or BCP, they each gave me $10 on each site. (I was given a $5 offer twice on each site for free). The rest of the money I received came from freerolls and playing micro cash games. So on Winning Poker Network (ACR & BCP) I have a total of $50 with no deposits on my part.

However on Carbon/Merge I had deposited some money. It allows me to play stakes that I normally wouldn't be able to play with a freeroll bankroll. For example (200 NL )

 

[Gary_Heart]

I'm not sure who A2345Razz refers as "we've" when stating "we've collectively sold the dream" of becoming a profitable poker player "to the public". Perhaps the poker rooms and/or the poker culture collectively as a whole?

Thing is, I must have missed those salespeople or maybe I was just as interested in what they had to say as when people try to sell me a bridge. I play Poker for its entertainment value.

I'm not sure who A2345Razz refers as "us" when stating “generally for us to maintain this game” the poker world “needs net depositors period to survive.” AND really? You think "Freeroll culture has hurt poker...."

If the net profit/loss is a LOSS for all players based on rake” then the rake is too high and as with taxes being too high people will revolt.

Like LD1977 said: “reduce rake and stimulate economy”. Squeezing beginners, freerollers; hobbyists; armatures to deposit 200-500 dollars to plug the holes in the boat won’t work – the boat will still sink. Don’t expect us - who play for fun – to float the boat. We, after all, are referred to as fish aren’t we? We play freerolls - you can too – so where’s the beef?

I'm reminded of going to the park to see the fireworks for free. When there, I see the show and have fun visiting with others who enjoy the show. Some people at the show buy things from the various venders they would not have bought otherwise.

This, so to speak, deposit of money with the venders is not mandatory nor is it "important for beginners to actually DEPOSIT A DECENT amount of money" to maintain the show.

Basically if the vendor at the show offers an honest value - people will come - and spend enough to maintain it. If not, that vendor will fail as people will go elsewhere. Let the sparks fly :deal:

 

[donkcentralFF]

most people I know who don't play online do so because they don't feel it's safe

 

[kisintin01]

before, once I started playing poker - I thought - to play freerolls to learn, and I will ride for real money. But this is a big mistake for most beginners. limits than higher - the Responsible Gaming while stuffing his hand. therefore supports the post - but the bad that I realized recently (

 

[johnsonrod]

Free rolls are how poker sites bring new depositors into the game which benefit all players.
I agree with #1
#2 depends on your goals you are trying to achieve.
#3 is why there are free rolls in the first place.

 

[johnsonrod]

Actually I could argue all night why free rolls have made the biggest impact on the popularity of the game (outside of poker on T.V.). ever.
The vast majority of the public has a inherit skepticisim about poker and gambling in general. Free rolls has allowed them to see the skill involved.
This is how the general public comes to terms with poker as a skilled game and allows them to feel more comfortable depositing, which is what we all want.
It's a fact that most do not want to deposit until they feel they have a legitimate chance of winning something back, and in doing so, they gain the necessary experience to weight the odds and or their personal confidence in why they will eventually make a deposit. IT BENEFITS EVERYBODY!

 

[A2345Razz]

I just want to emphasize again, bc it seems some people have misunderstood me in the original post, I AM DEFINITELY NOT AGAINST FREEROLLS AS A MARKETING TOOL FOR POKER. I occasionally play freerolls, and encourage everyone on CC to support and participate in the ones CC holds.


What I am against is a culture that has developed that has told new players it isn't necessary to deposit or even smart and they can easily spin freeroll money up into millions or at least a workable 1st world income in short order.

Also, those who are saying-and again I am sort of shocked to even see this- that new depositors aren't necessary for the ecosystem are just flat out wrong.

Rake definitely is too damn high at micro tables and PLO and even many limit varietals, but that isn't mutually exclusive with the need for new depositors.

WE NEED NEW DEPOSITORS CONSTANTLY IN ORDER FOR THE POKER ECONOMY TO WORK, PERIOD.

There isn't anything wrong with people depositing a few hundred dollars into poker as they learn and try to improve; in fact, I think the most efficient mode of learning would be to deposit after a short amount of time playing freerolls and the like and start playing the smallest stakes cash and/or tournament games.

 

[BiliousBetil]

What I am against is a culture that has developed that has told new players it isn't necessary to deposit or even smart and they can easily spin freeroll money up into millions or at least a workable 1st world income in short order.

Also, those who are saying-and again I am sort of shocked to even see this- that new depositors aren't necessary for the ecosystem are just flat out wrong.

Correct! All that is being said here is that poker is like any other business. The income has to exceed the outgo or the business is not viable. There is a consistent prevailing myth that online card rooms do not incur significant costs. Physical facilities, server costs, software development and maintenance, salaries, and by the way freerolls are all significant costs. A site cannot take rake out of a non-existent or shrinking cash pool. There is no cash pool without deposits.

Cheers!

 

[Sil3ntness]

Yeah I view freerolls as a form of rakeback to the depositors, but yet on ACR/BCP (Winning Poker Network) they graciously give out so much free money.

Seriously they gave me $20 just for clicking accept on an email they sent me. BCP & ACR sent me two different emails saying click here for a free $5 deposit. So total of $20. Combine that with CardsChat freerolls, micro stake cash games, and the $10 On Demand freeroll (which I binked 1st place *toot my own horn*) I was gifted over $50 for not depositing a single dime. That's a really good deal for a customer. I'm surprised Winning Poker Network is able to give out so much free money when I haven't deposited a dime.

I guess they must have a ton of depositors and the rake must be really good from other players...

 

[rifflemao]

Non-depositors are also cheating themselves out of the new depositor Freeroll. :deal:

 

[freestocks]

I like freerolls

 

[rifflemao]

I wonder how much Chris Ferguson's Zero to 10k challenge might have helped sell the no-deposit culture back in the day (well before all hell broke loose).

 

[Gary_Heart]

A2345Razz, I'm attempting to get your drift correct - you say:
The every day players need to be depositing.
AND
New players shouldn't EXPECT to build a roll and skills from freerolls alone.

OK got that - but the thing that I'm not 'buying into' is when you say ... "We need to tell people over and over again that depositing is a normal and healthy part of starting out in poker and learning the game."

The players - starting out - are targets and easy pickings for the experienced player. You know this and yet you’re trying to sell them on the idea to just keep depositing - Its all for the good of the game - what U smokin?

Like VinnyStrat said ... "Free Rolls are an entry level into Poker" and "Some of the players that play Only Free Rolls will move on to become more frequent Hobbyist players and deposit cash to play. Some will move on and look for another hobby. Some may just play Free Rolls forever. I don't see how it is that Free Rolls have "Hurt" poker."

A2345Razz you then came back and asked ... "Who said freerolls "hurt" poker?" What! I ask you, is that not the title you placed on this thread? I am glad you have made it clear however that at least you’re not against freerolls as a marketing and social networking tools to promote the game.

You go on to say ... "A CULTURE WHERE DEPOSITING is seen as the exception or in some way a loss to a beginning player....even repeated deposits....is something entirely different."

Sooo … Maybe you should have named your thread - New and Everyday Fish - Please Donate Your Cash So the Pros Can Continue to Withdraw.

Like johnsonrod said ... "The vast majority of the public has a inherit skepticism about poker and gambling in general. Free rolls has allowed them to see the skill involved." He goes on ... "It's a fact that most do not want to deposit until they feel they have a legitimate chance of winning something back, ..."

In fairness to you A2345Razz you say ... "There isn't anything wrong with people depositing a few hundred dollars into poker as they learn and try to improve; in fact, I think the most efficient mode of learning would be to deposit after a short amount of time playing freerolls and the like and start playing the smallest stakes cash and/or tournament games."

But even with this - somehow you seem so desperate when you say "deposit after a short amount of time playing freerolls" and then shout "WE NEED NEW DEPOSITORS CONSTANTLY IN ORDER FOR THE POKER ECONOMY TO WORK, PERIOD."

To me you’re just saying beginners, freerollers; hobbyists; armatures must deposit 200-500 dollars to keep the game alive and healthy for the sharks.
Couldn't you do the same thing by simply not withdrawing? So just exactly whose economy are we talking about here? :deal:

 

[A2345Razz]

What! I ask you, is that not the title you placed on this thread?

No, in fact it isn't. The title of my thread doesn't talk about freerolls being bad for poker.

Perhaps you need to reread both the title and the OP and other posts I made.

Yes, new players will on average lose more than they win, and yes, we need that to occur for poker to be a workable ecosystem.

I wish I could create a scheme for you where no one loses in poker and everyone can play and play and play with a chance of winning big and lots of large fields/liquid cash games without someone losing, but I cannot.

The economy of poker needs depositors to maintain itself and many of them need to be players with less experience than others.....I absolutely believe that. Some will bust their rolls, some won't.

I also never said rank beginners should "just deposit" and be "easy pickings".....nowhere did I say that, and in fact, I said they should start off with other forms and then move to real money and yes, deposit.

I also never said people should just deposit again and again and again with no end in sight, and most won't no matter what I say. People need to budget a certain amount to learn the game, and not rely on solely freerolls to build a bankroll and improve. That is what I am saying. There shouldn't be an overriding idea that somehow depositing is weakness or redepositing a few times at the beginning of a poker career is somehow bad, unnatural or to be seen as defeat, it isn't.

That is the essence of poker, and I am sorry if the kill or be killed nature of poker hasn't been clear to you from the beginning. People also need to play better players in order to improve at times in all fields. If you never are playing a superior player in poker, you simply aren't challenging yourself enough to really improve much.

 

[Gary_Heart]

What! I ask you, is that not the title you placed on this thread?

No, in fact it isn't. The title of my thread doesn't talk about freerolls being bad for poker.

I also never said rank beginners should "just deposit" and be "easy pickings".....nowhere did I say that, and in fact, I said they should start off with other forms and then move to real money and yes, deposit.

I also never said people should just deposit again and again and again with no end in sight, ............

That is the essence of poker, and I am sorry if the kill or be killed nature of poker hasn't been clear to you from the beginning.

Your right the title is “Freeroll culture has hurt poker....” but that’s kind of like picking the fly poop out of the pepper is it not?

Actually if you read my post above yours you'll see what I, not you, said was … “The players - starting out - are targets and easy pickings for the experienced player. You know this and yet you’re trying to sell them on the idea to just keep depositing - Its all for the good of the game - what U smokin?

As for depositing again and again what you said was … "WE NEED NEW DEPOSITORS CONSTANTLY IN ORDER FOR THE POKER ECONOMY TO WORK, PERIOD."

And yes we all know poker is kill or be killed by nature - what remains in the smoke of your text that is not clear is why you are so frantic for more and more depositors? :deal:

 

[S3mper]

5) We need to stop selling poker as a moneymaking venture period bc when we do we look like hucksters and and liars to lay people. Poker is a game, a gambling game where the net profit/loss is a loss for all players based on rake. Stop talking about how people are supporting themselves on poker; it is very very few mainly younger people and many of them would be better of getting into their careers and not opening multi yr holes on their CVs.

Also, I did wresting and football for many yrs and never once did I realistically think or believe I was going to derive a monetary benefit from it.


Also, you can dream, but to say its realistic to become a self sufficient pro in X months is ridiculous in 2015. We need to sell the game itself bc the reality is less and less and less people are going to able to make a good living (1st world) off of online poker as edges shrink. You can spin it any way you want, but if the only thing you have to sell poker with is "the dream" than poker is completely doomed.

I obviously know we need new deposits (New money) in the game for it to be successful.

I somewhat disagree with #5. The #1 reason poker exploded was Chris Money Maker turned $30 into over a million dollars. This is what EVERYONE wants to do. The way our culture is (life not poker) people want that type of success and not only do they want it but (JG wentworth commercial) "They want it now!!"

So maybe it's true we need to stop selling the you can grind for 16 hours a day and get a marginal apartment but start selling "Hey, why not you?!?" for instant over night, one tournament millionaires.

Does it matter that statistically it's not going to be you (or them)? Not from an poker economy view point.

Slot machines are -EV no matter what. Yet they are a casinos #1 profit. The thought of "It could be me" keeps everyone coming back even to a NET -EV game.

 

[Sil3ntness]

Short answer: No I don't think "Freeroll culture" has hurt poker.

Here's my viewpoint on why:

(First I'm a big fan of depositing)

There are some great benefits when you deposit as a new player. You get some good experience REAL QUICK. I started off playing 4 NL (There was no 2 NL where I played)

I got owned so many times. I took a beating at 4 NL, but I learned quickly. Like Phil Galfond said: "You gotta pay the tuition" to get the knowledge to improve your poker skills. Freerolls IMO are terrible way of learning good poker play. Yes you learn the discipline of folding mediocre hands, but when it comes to learning proper preflop and postflop play you probably wont learn much from freerolls. They're called Donkaments for a reason. Even the final table of a freeroll is a joke. Nobody is really following ICM concepts at a donkament final table.

So the advantages to depositing is you can quickly get thrown "into the fire" and play against people that actually care (because their money is on the line) and it makes it easier for you to move up in stakes when you can boost your bankroll with deposits.
---

(Here I explain why freerolls are beneficial to the poker community)

I got a lot of respect for someone that can play a 1000 freerolls and build up a roll from scratch. However, I swear that has to be one of the most mind numbing journeys one can accomplish. Especially bubbling to a drooler that chases a backdoor flush with 27s when you are deep stacked with a villain. Yes I have had that happen when I had AK and flopped TPTK and the guy chased to a backdoor 7 high flush on the river. (I didn't slowplay at any point).
---
So in essence, there is no one way to play poker. If you want to grind the freerolls and the lowest of the micros to work your way up, fine. If you want to deposit and possibly quickly move up the stakes, you can do that too!

I'm just happy to have ANY poker volume. The worst thing that could happen is a poker site stops doing freerolls and promotions and now all the site has left is a low volume of regs rotating their account balances back and forth to each other... and the occasional recreational players that deposit and either bust/break even or start building up a decent profit.

 

[YourHuckleberry]

You can spin it any way you want, but if the only thing you have to sell poker with is "the dream" than poker is completely doomed.

If that were the case then the lottery would have been defunct a thousand years ago. The "dream" is actually what allows grinders to be able to grind because without the "dream" there is not enough new blood and thus dead money on the table for anyone to make any money. Just my opinion.

 

[BiliousBetil]

If that were the case then the lottery would have been defunct a thousand years ago. The "dream" is actually what allows grinders to be able to grind because without the "dream" there is not enough new blood and thus dead money on the table for anyone to make any money. Just my opinion.

The "Dream" may apply to lotteries and the "numbers" before it, but certainly not to poker. It's pretty safe to assume that the millions of players since poker surfaced in the early 1800s played for recreation, not fortune.

Since the poker boom 'gold rush' more people have seen poker as a way of making a living, but that still is not the majority of players. Growing the game will depend on showing poker to be the fun, challenging activity that it is.


Cheers!

 

[TeUnit]

i think of poker as an ecosystem, and with out the micro organisms or little fishes the bigger animals cant survive

as far as deposits, people are scared after black friday and without a federal solution or their states having legal gaming its hard to have faith in depositing

 

[Gary_Heart]

"You gotta pay the tuition" to get the knowledge to improve your poker skills. Freerolls IMO are terrible way of learning good poker play. Yes you learn the discipline of folding mediocre hands, but when it comes to learning proper preflop and postflop play you probably wont learn much from freerolls.

So the advantages to depositing is you can quickly get thrown "into the fire" and play against people that actually care (because their money is on the line) and it makes it easier for you to move up in stakes when you can boost your bankroll with deposits.

I got a lot of respect for someone that can play a 1000 freerolls and build up a roll from scratch. However, I swear that has to be one of the most mind numbing journeys one can accomplish.

So in essence, there is no one way to play poker. If you want to grind the freerolls and the lowest of the micros to work your way up, fine. If you want to deposit and possibly quickly move up the stakes, you can do that too!

I'm just happy to have ANY poker volume. The worst thing that could happen is a poker site stops doing freerolls and promotions ....

I agree with everything you said and I'm grinding my mind numb as we speak. I've decided to pay my tuition to the ring of fire with my freeroll winnings. So far so good in the micros.

I'm thrown in to that burning ring of fire - my stack goes down down down as the blinds they get higher LOL

Thanks to the Freeroll hosts and for the fun of just playing !!

 

[rifflemao]

Like Phil Galfond said: "You gotta pay the tuition" to get the knowledge to improve your poker skills.

Yep, the lessons tend to stick with you more when your hard-earned money is up for grabs. Not that money from freerolls isn't hard-earned too; sometimes it is, and at least takes up your time.

 

[supernuts25]

Going to have to disagree. Although I will agree for USA players it is a bit harder after Black Friday. Mostly because we don't have an opportunity for a lot of the larger games. That poker stars offer. I did cash s lot more when we had access to the bigger sites.

 

[SuperDaveUp1]

sounds to me your looking to deep , sounds that maybe you would be better at politics and quit picking at poker basically quit playing your over thinking poker thats your problem get the poker zen ummmmmmmm......