which one do you prefer ??

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S3mper

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. This is kind of backwards since you'd be hoping for calls, not folds, when raising with not just aces but a variety of strong hands pre flop. Generally (as with everything else in poker this isn't ironclad), when you raise for value, the more people who err by calling with hands you crush the better. If you shove AA preflop the EV of this play is at its maximum when you have 8 different callers, not 1 or 2 or even 3. I know shoving isn't quite the same thing because it guarantees a showdown. Still, when you're raising AA, the thinking shouldn't be "gee I sure hope no one calls me so that I can win 1.5 blinds" unless you're jaded from some recent terrible luck with AA, or you don't understand poker whatsoever, or you really need to use the washroom and want the hand resolved asap. Anytime you're putting money into the pot with the nuts in a cash game, you're better off getting multiple calls quote]

I disagree you do not want multiple calls with AA you want to be HU or 3 way at most with AA Raising for value isn't the only reason some one will raise you want to raise to "protect" your hand also protect being the key.

Being in a multi way pot with AA is asking to get stacked as AA is good vs 1 or 2 players it is not that good vs 3 or more as your pre flop monster is vulnerable with little to no re draws.

I still stand by limping early position (sometimes) with AA against a loose and aggressive table where you know the players well enough to safely assume they are going to raise for you a large % of the time to where you can re-raise building a pot and "protecting" your hand.
 
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DunningKruger

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Even though your opinion is mathematically unsound, such an opinion lends itself more to raising with the hands you want to play in NLHE instead of open limping them. Moreover, if you ever entertain the idea of moving up to more lucrative stakes someday against players who have a brain, you won't be able to limp a hand like AA with any regularity without being clearly full of **** when you do try and 2bet. You'll get abused quite liberally for it.

You'll also find that playing flops with a narrower range than one has when they make a single range to be problematic as well. You'll also have trouble balancing your 3bet and jamming ranges with the appropriate number of bluffs without doing pretty weird things to your overall vpip. Try it, and you'll likely conclude the possibility of having AA when you open limp a hand isn't going to give you free reign to play a bunch of speculative crap. Getting dealt a hand like aces at any given time is pretty hard to do with any regularity.

As for all that stuff about protecting your hand from being outdrawn, that's the beauty of NLHE isn't it. If you're the type who likes to make sure your opponents play mistake free poker by ensuring they correctly fold their hands when you're strong, you can just go all in whenever you have the nuts, pre or post, and ensure that your hand gets "protected". That kind of mentality is sort of missing the point imho but hey, whatever works for each of us. I'm more of an EV person because that's what works for me.
 
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tracyrickrobby

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im also confused how is AA weaker then KK??? and i never limp in with and PP bigger then 8s! thats just asking for disaster!! too many Ace rag callers!!
 
S3mper

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I think poker is very situational so to know what your going to do and not going to do with a hand before you even get the hand is a mistake (IMO), there are so many variables that come in to play if you were to get AA utg, table behavior the previous hand, if some one is tilted, if two people at the table are arguing and looking to punish each other, if some one at the table is arguing with you and is looking to punish you. Without knowing all the variables I think you shouldn't be able to say what you would do and would never do before the moment arrives.

Before the moment arrives I think you should think of every spot as if you were dealt JJ in other words who knows what you're going to end up doing

Also betting to protect your hand I do not mean just shove so they fold You're right in that you want players with weaker hands to call you but you don't want to be in a inflated pot with multiple people 3 or more opponents with AA but if you have a hand like 67s you do want a multiway pot. When I was talking about betting to protect your hand (post-flop) I meant betting to make your opponents pay to hit there draws while giving them the incorrect odds to make their hand.. If they end up catching their hand then good for them; let them keep doing that and you will win 85% of the time they try to do that.
 
Aleksei

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Dunning, do you understand what gameflow control is? Or how it affects your game when you're holding made-value versus speculative-value hands?
 
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DunningKruger

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No, I don't actually understand much about poker, although tbh I like to think I understand enough to raise an eyebrow when someone makes a series of unusual comments (like how forcing your opponents to show a stronger part of their range is paramount to profitable post flop play... stuff like that). The rationale I used to refute some of your remarks appears to be pretty sound to me but ofc if I'm wrong by all means show me why. I never pass up an opportunity to learn from the best.
 
S3mper

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A lot of people seem to disagree with even considering limping with AA, which is fine if that's how they choose to play but I think its good if your certain some one else will raise for you allowing you to re-raise getting even more money into the pot while being able to isolate a single player protecting your hand...

Also if I'm playing against a player who I know will never limp AA or KK QQ utg then it makes it easier for me to abuse that person by raising there utg limps because I don't have to worry about any of those hands.

In reverse if some one knows a player is capable of playing a big PP utg then it can protect there suited connectors or small PP limps because some one will be more hesitant of raising.

(just my opinion ofc)
 
Aleksei

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Well... the thing about Texas Hold 'em is that a hand, no matter how strong, becomes likelier and likelier to lose when it is up against multiple weaker hands. The reason is that statistically, the more hole cards there are that you don't know about, the greater the probability of one or two randomly connecting to the board. This has two important implications:

One, a strong, even optimal, preflop hand has increasingly worse equity as the number of opponents increases. For instance, AA's preflop equity is 86% versus a single random hand, but it's just 22% against ten random hands. This becomes an even bigger problem postflop, because the more hands see a flop with you the more likely it is that someone somewhere randomly connected with the board in a way that creates a hand better than AA (mostly because AA has just 6 outs versus two-pair, 2 versus a set, and it's virtually dead to a better hand). Which means that by playing it aggressively into multiple people you risk gaining terrible reverse-implied odds in that you will very frequently end up playing huge pots for stacks against hands that cracked you. And you will virtually never get three people to call you all-in with ranges you have favorable odds against.

Two, when there is more than one person with you in the pot (more than two especially, but even the presence of a third player can complicate things), you lose all control of the pot, which effectively eliminates the chances you have of winning money postflop by using skill to gain a profit. You cannot show down marginal hands cheaply to gain a profit, you cannot get your opponent to miss and fold when you have air (which will happen well over half the time almost regardless of what either of you are holding), and you cannot get your opponent to fold his drawing equity or protect your own by making him pay too much for it. You are reduced to having the near-nuts, drawing to the nuts, or folding; and because of the vast quantity of hands in pot with you even having a nutty hand doesn't make you bulletproof.

You're, at the best of times, playing marginally +EV bingo, and it will be almost impossible to even beat the rake. You're playing an Omaha game where you have less combos than your villains and must fold twice as often.

A friend of mine wrote a comprehensive essay on loose ring games, I'll post it here for your perusal.

THEORY OF LOOSE RING GAMES

Loose ring games play fundamentally differently from most games in that the constant occurrence of multiway pots massively blunts the power of superior preflop equity. In other words, if you're likely to end up playing the pot several ways, the advantage you'd expect to gain from having superior preflop equity is seriously, seriously limited; furthermore, this effect is dramatically compounded when you don't have position on all of your opponents.

We've all heard since day one that position is one of the most dramatically powerful and important forces in poker. But why? What makes it so important? One of the main reasons position is so powerful is that acting last allows us to do two very important things much more often:

1) Reach showdown. The ability to check back the river in position (or bet, if you want) and choose to show down the hand is very powerful.

2) Win without showdown. Being able to act last gives us a lot more opportunities to bluff/semi-bluff and cause people to surrender their equity, allowing us to realize more than our share.

So we get dealt AQ in early position--that's a good hand, so we're supposed to raise, right? Maybe, but realize this is only true under the assumption that we expect to either reach showdown (by checking down with one or two opponents) or win without showdown (by bluffing one or two opponents, or just taking down the blinds) most of the time.

Remember that, with any starting hand worse than QQ, we're going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time. Normally, when two or fewer players call our opening raise, that's not such a big problem, because we'll be able to either reach showdown (by checking down or calling one bet with the best hand) or win without showdown (by betting and getting our opponents to fold) often enough to justify open raising the hand for its preflop equity alone--but what if we expect three or more players to flat call routinely, with wide hand ranges that could connect with any board?

============================================================================================
**THE IDEA OF RAISING STRONG HANDS PREFLOP IS CONTINGENT ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOU WILL EITHER REACH SHOWDOWN OR WIN WITHOUT SHOWDOWN ON MOST BOARDS...IF NEITHER OF THESE ASSUMPTIONS IS TRUE, YOUR SUPERIOR PREFLOP EQUITY (WITH ANY HAND LESS THAN QQ) IS NEAR-MEANINGLESS!
============================================================================================

The more callers we get, especially callers who have position on us, the more increasingly unlikely it becomes that we will be able to capitalize on our hand's superior preflop equity when we invariably miss the flop 2/3 of the time. The more opponents we have, the more likely it is someone will flop something and bet, and thus the less likely we are to reach showdown when we miss; furthermore, we are also far less capable of bluffing and winning the pot without showdown when we have numerous opponents.

So if we're going to miss 2/3 of the time, and we'll rarely be able to show down the best hand OR win without showdown the times we miss, why are we raising preflop with hands worse than QQ? What is this accomplishing for us?

One can argue that, when we do flop well and win the pot with a continuation bet, we will win several times more money from the numerous callers than we would in a HU or 3-handed pot--and that is true--but the problem with relying on this is that it causes our variance to skyrocket and thus prevents building gameflow/image and capitalizing on recent wins. It leaves us too much at the mercy of whoever happens to flop well, in my opinion, and removes both bluffing and realizing the equity of our bluffcatchers at showdown from the game too much to be a viable option.

So when we're playing in a loose/crazy game where open raising early or mid position (or even the cutoff sometimes) is likely to result in playing OOP multiway (which is in itself almost inherently unprofitable), what can we do?

1) Play extremely tight in any seat where raising would likely result in playing OOP multiway. You want to avoid playing OOP multiway like the plague--unless you are somehow getting absurdly consistent fold equity in raised pots due to horrendously passive/predictable postflop play from your opponents, this is going to mean having an incredibly tight open raising range in the early and mid positions.

2) Limp/3bet (or limp/call when your hand is not strong enough to value 3-bet a tight iso-raising range) your strong hands to isolate. Even if you do it huge and no one calls, you collect a lot more preflop dead money this way than by open raising. And even if no one raises your limp and you end up seeing a multiway pot with several limpers, you can easily get away from it for just 1bb when you miss, and if you hit, you'll likely have some good smallball opportunities to get value out of a hand that would otherwise have just wasted a lot of money raising preflop and having to play OOP multiway, which ruins its preflop value anyway. (Additionally, when you balance your limping range with strong hands and people know you will be limp/3-betting sometimes, you can now limp a few more speculative hands to see cheap flops in multiway pots and get away easily when you miss.)

3) If you cannot make limping work for whatever reason, open gigantic enough (and with a tight/strong enough range) that you will reduce the field to one or two callers. The problem with this approach is that it wastes the value of your strong hands when everyone just folds, and thus reduces villains' opportunities to make postflop mistakes against your legit value hands--but it does make it pretty straightforward to play postflop.

============================================================================================
THE EXCEPTION FOR SUPER PREDICTABLY PASSIVE/HYPER EXPLOITABLE POSTFLOP PLAYERS:

**THE DEGREE TO WHICH VILLAINS WILL PLAY WEAK/PASSIVELY POSTFLOP, AND THUS PREDICTABLY LET YOU REACH CHEAP SHOWDOWNS/LET YOU WIN WITHOUT SHOWDOWN/PAY OFF DISPROPORTIONATELY HUGE WHEN YOU WANT THEM TO POSTFLOP WILL MASSIVELY IMPACT HOW LOOSE YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH RAISING PREFLOP--ANY TIME YOU HAVE A GOOD REASON TO THINK YOU WILL GET TO SEE WAY TOO MANY CHEAP SHOWDOWNS AND/OR WIN WITHOUT SHOWDOWN POSTFLOP TOO OFTEN, YOU CAN RAISE MUCH WIDER RANGES, BUT NOTE THAT THIS GETS INCREASINGLY UNLIKELY AS THE GAME GETS BETTER/MORE AGGRESSIVE POSTFLOP AND AS YOUR POSITION GETS WORSE!
============================================================================================

I'm definitely nothing resembling the best, by the way. :D I can't outplay regs, and I don't feel confident beating any game higher than 10NL.
 
Aleksei

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Oh, and image equity is also important. In games like casino 200NL most people are terrible, but usually one or two will know enough to understand isoing against limpers is a good idea (or else just be bored aggrotards and want action), which makes it harder to see cheap flops with hands that DO play well multiway (pocket pairs looking to flop sets, suited Aces, Kings and Queens looking to flop flushes and FDs, and connected cards looking to flop nut straights and SDs). By limp-3betting the top of your made-hand range to isolate raisers, you get people used to the idea that trying to iso you is bad mojo, and you can start limping in speculative hands.
 
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DunningKruger

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Aleksei, I'm a bit conflicted in how to respond to your post. On one hand, this has to rank as some of the worst poker advice I've ever read.... and I've seen some doozies. Your friend's article is pretty ridiculous in its own right. On the other hand, you took the time to explain yourself that thoroughly and even retrieved additional reading material, so that's much appreciated. Thank you for taking up the discussion with me. I will try to conjure up a reply as elaborate as yours but I can't make any guarantees as I'm posting from my phone right now. (Incidentally I'm at a casino playing holdem... or rather I'm on a meal break atm as I'm not one of ~those~ people who eat at the poker table.) I'll just bring up a few quick things as opposed to a point by point response.

You speak a lot about showdown equity. 85.2% > 38.7%, but obv 38.7% of $3,200 >>>> 85.2% of $800. In any case, this is quite a bit different than actually playing post flop poker. Players have to get to showdown, perhaps catching a gutshot or a 2 pair hand on the river or w/e, to realize pot equity.

No one said playing post flop poker multiway was cake (well, unless you were playing on Cake that is), but everyone else in the pot has to do it also. There's no inherent disadvantage there. Post flop advantages/disadvantages will pretty much come from the exact same factors they always do be it HU, 3 way, or w/e - things like skill and position. Oh and a pretty looking couple of hole cards is nice also. Any half decent poker player worth the family sized red bull she's sipping on is capable of playing a multiway pot, and I would hope that doesn't become a point of debate.

As somewhat of an aside I'm curious about the 22% figure you stated and where you got it from because I do believe that's too low. I can't be entirely certain because I'm not home and can't open up the simulator I coded, and I don't know offhand of a web based calculator that allows for 11 or more players. If you did the math yourself on that then I'd be quite impressed that a 10NL player was able to do that but I still have to wonder if you didn't make a mistake with it.

I'm running out of time right now and certainly don't have what it'd require to properly address your tips on playing aces post, so I'll skip it. Suffice it to say that everything was wrong other than that nutted hands aren't bulletproof, which is certainly true.

And now to finish up...

You're, at the best of times, playing marginally +EV bingo, and it will be almost impossible to even beat the rake.

You may have been grossly exaggerating for whatever reason, or, it may genuinely surprise you to learn that a ton of players who don't open limp find beating the rake to be more than just possible..... they flat out crush.

You're playing an Omaha game where you have less combos than your villains and must fold twice as often.

Not sure if I'm interpreting what you're trying to say correctly but yes you'll have to do quite a bit of folding in NHLE to be a winning player. This is normally about when I'd suggest giving heads up poker a go because you can play way more hands and what's more you needn't worry about those scary 3 way pots either, but in your case I do believe you already fancy yourself a HU player, which is nice. HUNL is probably my favourite game, and the purest form of poker imo.

I'm definitely nothing resembling the best, by the way. :D I can't outplay regs, and I don't feel confident beating any game higher than 10NL.

Yeah those 10NL regs are pretty tough.
 
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DunningKruger

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A lot of people seem to disagree with even considering limping with AA, which is fine if that's how they choose to play but I think its good if your certain some one else will raise for you allowing you to re-raise getting even more money into the pot while being able to isolate a single player protecting your hand...

The only rule of poker that doesn't have exceptions is that there are always exceptions. In fact even that has exceptions. Limping aces can certainly be the best play to make under a specific set of conditions, but uNL players in particular tend to greatly overestimate how often such a situation comes up. Making a habit of the play is problematic for all kinds of reasons - a few of which I've already brought up in this topic. I'm definitely not trying to tell anyone how to play ofc. Do what you want. I just like talking about poker.
 
S3mper

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I was playing 1/2 at a casino and I had KK on the button with a limper in early position I was able to limp because the BB was raising every hand and he did raise to $22 and I was able to re-raise...

These are the situations I am talking about its a spot where you know your opponents that you can make these plays.

Poker is completely situational, I would never limp with KK on the button without a good read on my opponents.

Same with limping AA if you don't have a read on the table its not going to be a good spot but if you do have a read it can be a great spot.

So I believe no 2 cards should be played a certain way it all comes down to the situation.
 
Aleksei

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@Dunning, I am a HU player. I more or less refuse to play any game bigger than 6max, and feel most at home in 3-handed games and HU -- I like seeing lots of hands and playing tricky/tactically aggro postflop, and I don't like folding very often.

Sadly, the HU rake is unbeatable at the micros, so I play 6max instead.
 
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bizro2

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I love Pocket Aces in the big blind preflop when there is alot of action.
 
imafish

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AA, any situation.
 
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DunningKruger

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@Dunning, I am a HU player. I more or less refuse to play any game bigger than 6max, and feel most at home in 3-handed games and HU -- I like seeing lots of hands and playing tricky/tactically aggro postflop, and I don't like folding very often.

Sadly, the HU rake is unbeatable at the micros, so I play 6max instead.

It's similar for me. The HU scene is relatively dry these days. Fish are much fewer and regs wouldn't sit me (rake etc) so I decided to switch to 6max cash. Way better than driving yourself mad trying to get a bunch of HU tables going without being grimmed or the insta sit outs or best case scenario maybe get like 40-50 hands in.

Still, I think learning to play a decent HU game helps you in pretty much any other form of NLHE.
 
Aleksei

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Yeah I'm seriously planning to move away to Colombia with my mom so I can play on Stars/FTP (particularly the latter -- Stars is like the toughest room ever despite the redonkulously huge amount of action). Like, **** earning potential, I'll build up from the bottom. Being able to play non-USA sites is WAY more +EV than making more money if I'm gonna be a full-time pro one day.
 
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Definitely, the more sites you have access to the better your earning potential.
 
Abedin120

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I prefer AA on any position, that is the strongest card and every poker player dreams for that card, but you will have to know how to play that card, that depends on the table that you play and on the player against you play.
 
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sonic0691

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AA in any position. How I play it depends on the other players at the table, stack size etc. I don't see how position will push me off playing AA's aggressively.
 
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