which one do you prefer ??

[jularbs]

i believe that AA are weaker than KK in the pre flop. and just play it out by good bets when the flop comes out. and better if you're in the position. just an opinion

 

[nc_royals]

i believe that AA are weaker than KK in the pre flop. and just play it out by good bets when the flop comes out. and better if you're in the position. just an opinion

Welcome to CC but I'm scratching my head on that "AA are weaker than KK in the pre flop." Good luck with your game.

 

[S3mper]

i believe that AA are weaker than KK in the pre flop. and just play it out by good bets when the flop comes out. and better if you're in the position. just an opinion

If you want we can play HU and I'll start with AA every hand and you can start with KK every hand, jk lol =) unless of course you want to =O

 

[MargoMardus]

AA or KK no difference to me,everything depence what you get in the tabel.

 

[Aleksei]

i believe that AA are weaker than KK in the pre flop.

 

[DunningKruger]

I think never limping AA is a mistake

I think the games you play in are pretty weak. There's a perfectly valid reason why someone would likely never limp AA and that's because they never open limp. A large mass of solid, winning poker players don't even attempt to employ a balanced limping range utg so that they can play a bunch of multi way pots out of position. But anyway do what works best for you.

 

[Aleksei]

I think the games you play in are pretty weak. There's a perfectly valid reason why someone would likely never limp AA and that's because they never open limp. A large mass of solid, winning poker players don't even attempt to employ a balanced limping range utg so that they can play a bunch of multi way pots out of position. But anyway do what works best for you.

You actually should open-limp in super loose/fishy FR games (such as most casino 200NL games) because your open-raise has no fold equity, such that if you open-raise and end up playing a multiway pot OOP you have to fold when you miss -- which burns money. Much better to limp, wait for someone else to iso, and then if your hand is strong enough just 3bet for value. Worst case scenario everyone limps and you still end up in a multiway pot OOP, but you've just invested 1bb and don't mind playing a small pot.

 

[Fanch]

With no other factors given, I prefer Kings on the button here for a couple of reasons. 1. One more player than Sb, therefore twice the chance a player has a hand he can call or reraise with. BvB is tough unless your up against a maniac.

 

[Aleksei]

With no other factors given, I prefer Kings on the button here for a couple of reasons. 1. One more player than Sb, therefore twice the chance a player has a hand he can call or reraise with. BvB is tough unless your up against a maniac.

BvB is awesome. It's like HU with positions reversed, so ranges have to be super-wide (if the BB is folding more than half the time you can autoprofit from minraising every SB).

 

[DunningKruger]

You actually should open-limp in super loose/fishy FR games (such as most casino 200NL games) because your open-raise has no fold equity, such that if you open-raise and end up playing a multiway pot OOP you have to fold when you miss -- which burns money. Much better to limp, wait for someone else to iso, and then if your hand is strong enough just 3bet for value. Worst case scenario everyone limps and you still end up in a multiway pot OOP, but you've just invested 1bb and don't mind playing a small pot.

This is patently untrue. It's not much better to open limp in most 1/2 live games, and raising in poker does a lot more than merely create fold equity. But sure, the worse your competition is the more you can get away with making terrible plays. That's why I said the games this player plays in are likely pretty weak. Doesn't mean ofc that the expected value of limping aces in a fishy game and hoping that someone will put in a big raise for you exceeds that of using a balanced raising range yourself which includes AA.

Generally, the biggest leak bad players tend to have is that they call too much. Betting premium hole cards pre suddenly makes a lot of sense with that in mind. Get those stack to pot ratios down.

 

[guppystew]

I just shove nowadays and then find something to hit while 3 ppl call and hit some stupid flop that pays the worst hand. I see more 4 card flushes and str8s never using my A:shot: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[S3mper]

This is patently untrue. It's not much better to open limp in most 1/2 live games, and raising in poker does a lot more than merely create fold equity. But sure, the worse your competition is the more you can get away with making terrible plays. That's why I said the games this player plays in are likely pretty weak. Doesn't mean ofc that the expected value of limping aces in a fishy game and hoping that someone will put in a big raise for you exceeds that of using a balanced raising range yourself which includes AA.

Generally, the biggest leak bad players tend to have is that they call too much. Betting premium hole cards pre suddenly makes a lot of sense with that in mind. Get those stack to pot ratios down.

Not saying this attacking but have you ever played 200NL at a casino? there isn't a hand where some one isn't raising, and raising UTG with AA at a casino will probably get you in to an inflated pot unless you raise like $25+ Live game players (the bad ones at 1/2) will not fold to a 3-4xBB bet.

To say the games I play in are weak (not saying they aren't lol) because I said limping in utg with AA on a (vLAG) table once in a blue moon (Very rarely being the key word here) is a little offensive (Not that I'm offended)

As I said in another post The video I posted in this thread shows a pro at a high stakes game limping in with AA UTG vs other pros.

but maybe that's a weak game too?

 

[ScottishMatt]

They are playing miles beyond you . . .

Phil Ivey also 5-bet shovebluffed 5-2o vs a cold 4-bet. Why don't you try that and see how it works out for you?

 

[DunningKruger]

Not trying to be offensive. Sorry if you took it that way.

And yes I play a lot of live poker. I do very well at it although that's mainly because I'm very lucky (like when I jam aces pre I tend to end up against players who call it off with KQo or 99 or w/e lol.

 

[ChipEaterMan]

I would be happy to get either hand, and any position. They are both premium hands. If you're talking about both hands appearing in the same hand, I would have to choose the aces, but if you are not talking about both hands appearing in the same hand then I would choose the Kings because of position.

 

[S3mper]

Not trying to be offensive. Sorry if you took it that way.

And yes I play a lot of live poker. I do very well at it although that's mainly because I'm very lucky (like when I jam aces pre I tend to end up against players who call it off with KQo or 99 or w/e lol.

I didn't take offense to it at all really... See I wouldn't limp AA either if I knew I could just open shove pre flop and get called by KQo,

Again I don't limp AA more then 00.001% of the time

and again I wasn't attacking you either and I didn't take anything personally in fact I like the weak games.. Weak games = +EV = Happy me =)

 

[S3mper]

They are playing miles beyond you . . .

Phil Ivey also 5-bet shovebluffed 5-2o vs a cold 4-bet. Why don't you try that and see how it works out for you?

To say they are miles beyond me is a compliment, unfortunately not true ='( they are light years beyond me, Though comparing Ivey's shove to the AA limp is apples to oranges..

I was just (trying) to say (I failed I guess) was that just because the move was made doesn't make it a weak game (though it is)

if people are raising 10x the BB every hand or 90% of the hands I don't see why limp, raising UTG with AA is a bad play its better to have example 1 then example 2

Ex1 : Hero UTG- AA calls - MP raises $13 , BTN calls, Hero Raises

ex2: Hero AA Raises $6 , MP calls, CO calls, BTN calls, BB calls

ofc only example 1 on a table with maniacs that you know are raising.

Just for the record I have never had AA UTG in live poker (lol) I have limp raised pre flop with em though people at 1/2 just have to raise (at least at my casino) theres always that one guy =)

 

[glenn6971]

Limping AA is just giving the table an open invitation to catch a 2 pr flop and just hang it in your a$$ after the flop. :stupido2:

 

[S3mper]

Some one should start a thread for limping AA (utg optional) I accidently derailed this thread a little bit.. One last question though if you are to raise AA utg what should you open it up to in a live game? 3x the BB just won't cut it you end up with to many callers at 200NL live but at the same time raising to much seems like I'm screaming out "I have AA" especially since I usually play TAG

 

[ScottishMatt]

Apples to oranges? I could just as justifiably say your comparison of a weak 1/2 game to the video posted is just as uncomparable. In fact that is the very reason I mentioned it. Your live game is not the same as HSP. So to try and justify a, quite frankly bad move, just because you saw a pro do it is absurd.

 

[S3mper]

Apples to oranges? I could just as justifiably say your comparison of a weak 1/2 game to the video posted is just as uncomparable. In fact that is the very reason I mentioned it. Your live game is not the same as HSP. So to try and justify a, quite frankly bad move, just because you saw a pro do it is absurd.

I wasn't comparing the 1/2 game to a high stakes game at all? I said it can be done in both weak and strong games... I wouldn't do it because I saw a pro do it, I would do it because/if it was a very LAG table that was raising every single hand pre flop, by letting others do my raising for me I can put more in the middle.

That's basically the point I tried to make. IDK I must be wrong however every one seems to rule against me on this one.

Would I do it against a table of nits? no would I do it against a table of amateur maniacs? sometimes

I'll be alone in the thought that AA can be played more then one way pre flop lol

 

[Aleksei]

This is patently untrue. It's not much better to open limp in most 1/2 live games, and raising in poker does a lot more than merely create fold equity.

An open-raise is meant to do two things: Firstly, establish the image that you consider your hand strong enough to bet in the first place (and whether it is or not you have to pay to see it), and thus initiative. Secondly, to ensure that by forcing your opponents to show a stronger part of their range you get to see flops with less opponents. Both of these are paramount to profitable postflop play, because statistically both you and your opponent will whiff most boards unless either of you has QQ+ -- therefore, to play postflop profitably you require the ability to either take it down by getting your opponent to fold at least some of the time that you miss, or to simply show down a weak best hand for cheap when both of you miss.

If your raise is getting three callers or more every single time, you've accomplished neither of these things. Unless the game is exceedingly passive, you will not reach a cheap showdown, and because of the amount of people in table your fold equity decays to virtually none. If you miss (and unless you have QQ+ you will a large percentage of the time), you will have no choice but to fold. Weak made hands are no longer of any worth, since even the loosest ranges frequently hit something good when there are multiple people in pot.

So, you need to find a way to avoid multiway pots entirely. You have two ways to accomplish this: 1) limp-3bet, as in the example above, which shows colossal strength and forces most people to fold, and 2) raise so incredibly huge everyone around you has no choice but to fold. The second method has the drawback that you lose immense value when everyone around you folds and you just pick up the blinds, because you didn't give yourself good odds to take down dead money. If you limp-3bet you will take down dead money when most people fold, and if no one raises you merely find yourself in the same position as you would have had you made a standard open-raise (OOP in a bloated multiway pot), except now you just invested 1bb into a hand no one really gives a **** about. You can fold very cheaply, or you can bet smallish and give yourself good odds to take it down from time to time. And then when people catch wind that you're frequently limping hands like QQ+ they'll be afraid to raise, so that you can play a primarily speculative game and mine for sets and nutty flushes (Axs/Kxs/Qxs).

 

[dudemanstan]

Give me AA in the sb or the button any day over KK, as for as that goes just give me AA every hand in any position

 

[DunningKruger]

If your raise is getting three callers or more every single time, you've accomplished neither of these things.

Raising there would do a number of different things for you, including the first of the two things you mentioned. Anyway don't lose the forest for the trees. On a fundamental level, the reason you'd want to play larger pots with strong hands should be quite apparent.

So, you need to find a way to avoid multiway pots entirely.

This is kind of backwards since you'd be hoping for calls, not folds, when raising with not just aces but a variety of strong hands pre flop. Generally (as with everything else in poker this isn't ironclad), when you raise for value, the more people who err by calling with hands you crush the better. If you shove AA preflop the EV of this play is at its maximum when you have 8 different callers, not 1 or 2 or even 3. I know shoving isn't quite the same thing because it guarantees a showdown. Still, when you're raising AA, the thinking shouldn't be "gee I sure hope no one calls me so that I can win 1.5 blinds" unless you're jaded from some recent terrible luck with AA, or you don't understand poker whatsoever, or you really need to use the washroom and want the hand resolved asap. Anytime you're putting money into the pot with the nuts in a cash game, you're better off getting multiple calls.

This conversation reminds me a lot of one I had with a player on the Zynga boards. The play chip players didn't often fold to his raises so he started limping AA/KK lol to see if he'd hit first before playing a big pot. True story. I explained that people who don't fold when you have monsters is a ~great~ reason to raise, and he afterward started thinking more in terms of maximizing EV instead of winning as many of the hands that he played as he could.

The second method has the drawback that you lose immense value when everyone around you folds and you just pick up the blinds

Sooo..... making what's deemed to be a regular sized raise has the drawback that no one's going to fold and it defeats the point, while making a huge raise has the drawback that no one's going to call and you lose immense value. There's a definite problem with this reasoning, but instead of pointing it out I'll see if anyone else can spot it. Anyway yeah raise sizing is pretty important isn't it. That happy medium, or ideal size, or whatever you choose to call it, does exist though, so you needn't resign yourself to open limping. I suppose one reason to make the play might be to try create a particular image for yourself, since most of the players I know and play against would tag you as a fish (with reason) if they saw it.

A pot of literally a few blinds isn't anywhere near "bloated" btw. It's not that I'm getting picky with semantics, it's that the difference between a healthy live/loose game sized raise with a bunch of calls and a bunch of 1 blind limps is huge. It has a lot to do with how reckless it is to bet or call 3 streets with AA unimproved.

 

[Michael Paler]

In or out of position, AA or KK. The only real problem w KK is it can get killed by any ace-rag. If OOP w KK and there is no Ace on the flop, you will probably get 3-bet with a villain holding AA. However, the board texture can allow you to scare off a good player with AA on a dangerous board.

But he has to be real good, because some just will not ever fold AA no matter what cards come. I swear, I see AA lose to some rather obviously dangerous boards, like some people get tunnel vision with it. "I know there was a four flush/four to a st8, but I got Aces! If you gotta take a gamble, that's the only hand to do it with!"

Sure, sure. Too bad the donkey in the big blind took you out with 2 raggedy pairs, lmao. He didn't have the st8 or the flush either!