Cash Game players are more intelligent.

TeUnit

TeUnit

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Total posts
4,802
Awards
14
Chips
112
ICM doesnt make you do "stupid" things it makes you make the correct play mathematically. When players do not understand ICM they often make mathematical mistakes.

Saying ICM makes you make stupid plays is like saying John Nash was stupid, and he had a beautiful mind.
 
D

dawe84

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Total posts
3
Chips
0
Not a smart post from a very smart cash player. I know some cash players, I wouldn't consider very smart, they paid to coaches, learned a system, use the software-s. They play 6-12 tables at the same time, and they play like robots, using the rules of the system they were taught, playing the same all the time. On the the other hand on a tournament, you have to adjust your game to your actual stack, blind levels, you have to deal with a lot of fishes, but also with a lot a of good players. I'm not a fan of cash games, and I love the excitement of the late stages of tournaments. Now, I won't say that tournament players are smarter than cash players, because saying something like that in general is just arrogant and silly.
 
Amanda A

Amanda A

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Total posts
1,357
Awards
2
Chips
23
Cash players are smarter? Good, I'll stick to tournaments then. :) Who is smarter now? ha ha
 
R

Rational Madman

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
2,478
Chips
0
Not a smart post from a very smart cash player. I know some cash players, I wouldn't consider very smart, they paid to coaches, learned a system, use the software-s. They play 6-12 tables at the same time, and they play like robots, using the rules of the system they were taught, playing the same all the time. On the the other hand on a tournament, you have to adjust your game to your actual stack, blind levels, you have to deal with a lot of fishes, but also with a lot a of good players. I'm not a fan of cash games, and I love the excitement of the late stages of tournaments. Now, I won't say that tournament players are smarter than cash players, because saying something like that in general is just arrogant and silly.
I two table, three max. I focus hard on getting reads on all other 24 people (often less as i'm against 1 or 2 other multi tablers) and I combine small-scale bluffing with GTO plays. I don't play robotic but yes, I do fold a lot like a robot and feel no urge to 'play badass'.
 
albosaltenio

albosaltenio

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Total posts
1,975
Awards
4
Chips
60
Playing cash or tournament will not make you smarter.
For me the intelligence is in knowing how to adapt to the different modalities of play.
 
R

Rational Madman

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
2,478
Chips
0
Cash players are smarter? Good, I'll stick to tournaments then. :) Who is smarter now? ha ha
The ability of less intelligent donks and passive-fish both to defeat you in a tournament is much higher than it is in a cash game over the same period of time. You can't always wait-out their large preflop aggression waiting for good hands and even if you do, losing an allin with KA to their 5-7 once in a cash game is fine as you'll win back more from them later but in a tournament that gets you out making the entire time you spent folding and timing your actions pointless.
 
R

Rational Madman

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
2,478
Chips
0
Playing cash or tournament will not make you smarter.
For me the intelligence is in knowing how to adapt to the different modalities of play.
I actually have found my average ability to assess situations even in real day to day life has improved as a result of becoming a disciplined, efficient cash game player.
 
0546474

0546474

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Total posts
2,577
Awards
14
UA
Chips
105
Do you really think that all the smart players went to play cash games and the fools stayed to play tournaments because they do not have the mind to play cash games ??? Or is it you have such a joke ????
 
R

Rational Madman

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
2,478
Chips
0
Do you really think that all the smart players went to play cash games and the fools stayed to play tournaments because they do not have the mind to play cash games ??? Or is it you have such a joke ????
It wouldn't surprise me to find that most intelligent players who once liked tournaments found a much higher liking for cash games.

It would, however, surprise me if less intelligent players don't play both. See they don't pay attention to which one actually makes them lose more often, they just play and think 'this was fun'.
 
albosaltenio

albosaltenio

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Total posts
1,975
Awards
4
Chips
60
I can tell you the same thing and I play a lot more in tournaments
 
C

cj2327

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Total posts
58
Chips
0
Cash games have a more consistent style of play, but that seems to me to be an argument the other way. Good tournament players have to constantly reevaluate their play for every individual situation. Seems to be a hard task than playing cash, where the only adjustment you have to make is if you know a particular player well enough to make a normally -ev move against them.
 
R

Rational Madman

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
2,478
Chips
0
Cash games have a more consistent style of play, but that seems to me to be an argument the other way. Good tournament players have to constantly reevaluate their play for every individual situation. Seems to be a hard task than playing cash, where the only adjustment you have to make is if you know a particular player well enough to make a normally -ev move against them.
Cash games require constant reevaluation. Every new person to come onto the table and person to leave influences your tightness and looseness if you're not playing on 8 at once and pure TAGing.
 
vvalente

vvalente

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 18, 2017
Total posts
157
Chips
0
I do not agree. Smart is who specializes in one type of game and makes money from it. If you are a winner in your mode then you are smart. Either cash, mtt or sit's. The important thing is to win and to profit;
 
orchidra

orchidra

Allan with two Owls
Loyaler
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Total posts
4,396
Awards
32
NZ
Chips
1,438
Players who regularly hit cash games for their income are consistently smarter than the tournament counterparts.

I find cash games easier than tournaments and I'm not very smart.

Cash players are smarter? Good, I'll stick to tournaments then. :) Who is smarter now? ha ha

There's still hope for me then. You make more sense than the top statement.
 
R

Rational Madman

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
2,478
Chips
0
Fully explained: Cash Game players are smarter.

I made a thread a few days back about how silly tournament players are and it got all the tournament diehards to have a hissy fit and call me insecure.

This is understandable though, after all why would I expect a rational intelligent response from the side lacking these traits?

Now I shall fully explain why tournament poker is ultimately a futile invention and why those endorsing it are playing against their profit.

So, let's say you go to a 9 man sng, play real safe try to survive to the payouts. Now, unless you're at like a 10 cent or equivalent level of stakes where the literal fish of the fish go to just raise big and feel zero shame or guilt as they don't lose anything, you're not going to just be able to 'fold to the end' on a regular basis'. Yes, you can actually fold and profit on a tiny stakes level as a SnG tournament player but if making 1 dollar per hour is your aim in life then I feel terribly sorry for you.

In 'proper poker' where there's still fish and donks (I define donks as fish who use pre-flop aggression to make the sharks scared to participate, 'fish' are the more passive ones like the call station type or the type who are only LAG post-flop) you will find that you can't just fold to the end and that the final 3 out of 9 etc. will catch onto what you're trying to do and will raise you all-in preflop every hand at times laughing hard if their 5-7 beats your Kings and all that time you spent folding resulted in you gaining $0.00.

Now we begin to see two issues with tournaments:
1) In terms of time to money, there's very little proportionality or ability to use your own actions to increase or decrease your earnings per X amount of time. Why do I say this? Ultimately, even an Ivey/Hellmuth/Dwan/Negreanu tier player isn't going to influence the pace of a tournament, the skill is in accepting that you are a slave to the tournament's natural pace due to factors like blind increasing and also factors like the pre-flop aggression of your enemies causing you to not be able to play your Ace queen as even an ace nine can make all the time you spent lasting that long come to nothing if a 9 shows up.

2) As tournaments hit the ending, even if you did scrape payouts by playing like the TAG coward you are, there is basically 1% chance maximum of you ever getting above the bottom end of payouts, perhaps you'll get to the payout level just above bottom in an MTT if the fish kill each other off or you get aces or something. Why is this? Because the amount of big blinds one can afford at the end is only a good amount if they played like quite a loose idiot for a large portion of the game beforehand. How do I know? Do you think I didn't try my hand at tournament poker? I am extremely good at it, yet I still lose it regularly and find that heads up as in 1st vs 2nd is always pure luck 0% skill.

Now, let's look at those 2 things I just mentioned in cash games and explain why no one with a well/high-functioning IQ is going to play tournaments instead.

1) So, something I didn't mention before is that if you try to get 'faster ending' tournaments you even further enable less intelligent aggro players to get you out due to how fast the minimum bet increases forcing you to play just as dumb. This is actually true also in cash games in terms of seat amount, I never ever would advise anyone (and yes I am very perplexed why anyone opts this) to pick the 6 or 5 man tables in any poker site's cash games options over the 9 or 10 man table alternatives. Big table size means two different things both which benefit you immensely if you think long term. We all get periods of low variance, you know those 16 hands where you get 3-10, 5-4 etc? Yeah, we all get those periods, and what do you do? Correct shark, you just fold them and cry. That's totally fine to do, that's why cash games are so great because you have zero pressure to play a single one of those hands as there's no blind increase blackmailing you to take risks you otherwise wouldn't want to. So on a bigger table, this means losing less via blinds assuming that the table isn't less than half full for the duration of the folds. The second benefit of big-table cash-gaming is that you can hide your nut-hits so beautifully well and tilt people to the max with your surprise attacks, this works even better if you play a tiny bit loose here and there to make people underestimate the significance of you reraising. Let me explain this in more obvious terms; unless you are in first position (in which case the only way to pull this off is to check and hope the ones after you don't also check), you can let someone else raise, you call them or reraise the minimum amount hoping that someone after you then is going to think they have better than you and raise back, NOW YOU GO ALLIN and one of the two is bound to think 'OH NO YOU DONT TAKE THIS POT THAT EASILY' because you played as if you got semi-lucky and are hoping they both fear you except you actually hit fullhouse or something and used their aggression against themselves. This is near-impossible to pull off on 5/6 man tables where you are usually always ending up 1v1 in any hand where serious profit is to be made. In 1v1 hands, you can't mask your superstrength and have to raise big which allows the enemy to assess you better, you can't us others raising to trap someone like that which will mean you make less per hour guaranteed as your 'tricky' plays are always plays where your enemy has accurate assessment of your hands.

2) You know how in tournaments, all the people who played earlier like kamikaze donkeys are now running the show? Yeah, see tournaments are not for Buddhists they got no Karma whatsoever. You get unlucky once to these morons and you're out end of story. In cash games, psychos going all-in preflop are a goldmine if you stay long enough and endure hard enough. The more they lose to you, the more they want to take back from you. Once you win enough and know that they'll keep trying to take it from you in large chunks guess what you can do? There's a 'leave table' button ;) In cash games, bad players genuinely increase the profits of good/smart players due to one hand never 'knocking out' a person with any permanent sense. Of course, having the bankroll management to never walk in with 100% of your bankroll is a given and if you do this, then it becomes like a tournament where you can be permanently dominated by a donkey due to one bad hand, always be willing to buy-in at least 2 more times (so 3 buy-ins) as 2 bad beats is quite a plausible outcome before the reversal ensues.
 
Last edited:
K

kozong

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Total posts
1,442
Awards
8
Chips
2
565b451c17e890c9be40b902adde37db.jpg
 
terryk

terryk

TheCanuckwithalltheluck
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Total posts
7,053
Awards
10
Chips
1
Someone can`t play tournaments,,,,it`s ok bro. We all can`t be everything;) Good luck with your little `cash` thingy,tho. Cheers! :cool:
 
onondaga

onondaga

Ukraine
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Total posts
3,146
Awards
14
UA
Chips
0
Again? you had a lot of time to google this and find some poor explanations. but thats ok, let it be like you say. :D you are smarter! ..... because you play cash games

56811a3981f2e3f79dcd3cb6498c02a47fca907a1c754eb3c94d8b769e32bfdf.jpg


PS: youd better use old thread for this dialogue,
 
HennieP

HennieP

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 30, 2017
Total posts
186
Chips
0
A wall of text is not going to make your argument any more convincing. You're not smarter than tournament players simply because you are a cash player. Or would you like to compare IQ test results? We can round up a few tournament players and a few cash players and see how their IQ tests compare. I'm pretty sure the result will be inconclusive though.

It was already agreed that some tournament players don't play well in cash games just like some cash players don't play well in tournaments. This is just the way of the world. Not everyone can play all forms of poker successfully. That does not make them stupid and you smart. When you have won a few major tournaments AND a few high stakes cash games I might be inclined to think you're above average intelligence.

For now, all I think is that you can't play tournament poker very well so you try to make yourself feel better by claiming it is because you are smarter. Well, you're not because if you were then you would be able to do both equally well.
 
steadman0

steadman0

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Total posts
274
Chips
0
Not really sure how this is any proof that cash players are smarter.

I'm a tournament player mainly, used to play cash but tournaments are more fun. If you're a full cash player and cannot adapt your game to tournaments, that's fine but I wouldn't say it makes you any smarter of a player or person
 
SPANKYSN

SPANKYSN

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Total posts
1,445
Awards
6
Chips
41
Madman, some of your points are valid. Your manner of expressing your ideas is what may get in the way....that is, unless you are trying to be as controversial as possible in order to get more responses to your posting. Imitating Will Kassouf does not help get your point across.
I hear ya....but those poor idiots who belong to Mensa and play tournaments, I feel sorry for them. I am sure that Antonio Esfandiari and Daniel Negreanu are kicking themselves for playing in tournaments.
 
albosaltenio

albosaltenio

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Total posts
1,975
Awards
4
Chips
60
I made a thread a few days back about how silly tournament players are and it got all the tournament diehards to have a hissy fit and call me insecure.

This is understandable though, after all why would I expect a rational intelligent response from the side lacking these traits?

Now I shall fully explain why tournament poker is ultimately a futile invention and why those endorsing it are playing against their profit.

So, let's say you go to a 9 man sng, play real safe try to survive to the payouts. Now, unless you're at like a 10 cent or equivalent level of stakes where the literal fish of the fish go to just raise big and feel zero shame or guilt as they don't lose anything, you're not going to just be able to 'fold to the end' on a regular basis'. Yes, you can actually fold and profit on a tiny stakes level as a SnG tournament player but if making 1 dollar per hour is your aim in life then I feel terribly sorry for you.

In 'proper poker' where there's still fish and donks (I define donks as fish who use pre-flop aggression to make the sharks scared to participate, 'fish' are the more passive ones like the call station type or the type who are only LAG post-flop) you will find that you can't just fold to the end and that the final 3 out of 9 etc. will catch onto what you're trying to do and will raise you all-in preflop every hand at times laughing hard if their 5-7 beats your Kings and all that time you spent folding resulted in you gaining $0.00.

Now we begin to see two issues with tournaments:
1) In terms of time to money, there's very little proportionality or ability to use your own actions to increase or decrease your earnings per X amount of time. Why do I say this? Ultimately, even an Ivey/Hellmuth/Dwan/Negreanu tier player isn't going to influence the pace of a tournament, the skill is in accepting that you are a slave to the tournament's natural pace due to factors like blind increasing and also factors like the pre-flop aggression of your enemies causing you to not be able to play your Ace queen as even an ace nine can make all the time you spent lasting that long come to nothing if a 9 shows up.

2) As tournaments hit the ending, even if you did scrape payouts by playing like the TAG coward you are, there is basically 1% chance maximum of you ever getting above the bottom end of payouts, perhaps you'll get to the payout level just above bottom in an MTT if the fish kill each other off or you get aces or something. Why is this? Because the amount of big blinds one can afford at the end is only a good amount if they played like quite a loose idiot for a large portion of the game beforehand. How do I know? Do you think I didn't try my hand at tournament poker? I am extremely good at it, yet I still lose it regularly and find that heads up as in 1st vs 2nd is always pure luck 0% skill.

Now, let's look at those 2 things I just mentioned in cash games and explain why no one with a well/high-functioning IQ is going to play tournaments instead.

1) So, something I didn't mention before is that if you try to get 'faster ending' tournaments you even further enable less intelligent aggro players to get you out due to how fast the minimum bet increases forcing you to play just as dumb. This is actually true also in cash games in terms of seat amount, I never ever would advise anyone (and yes I am very perplexed why anyone opts this) to pick the 6 or 5 man tables in any poker site's cash games options over the 9 or 10 man table alternatives. Big table size means two different things both which benefit you immensely if you think long term. We all get periods of low variance, you know those 16 hands where you get 3-10, 5-4 etc? Yeah, we all get those periods, and what do you do? Correct shark, you just fold them and cry. That's totally fine to do, that's why cash games are so great because you have zero pressure to play a single one of those hands as there's no blind increase blackmailing you to take risks you otherwise wouldn't want to. So on a bigger table, this means losing less via blinds assuming that the table isn't less than half full for the duration of the folds. The second benefit of big-table cash-gaming is that you can hide your nut-hits so beautifully well and tilt people to the max with your surprise attacks, this works even better if you play a tiny bit loose here and there to make people underestimate the significance of you reraising. Let me explain this in more obvious terms; unless you are in first position (in which case the only way to pull this off is to check and hope the ones after you don't also check), you can let someone else raise, you call them or reraise the minimum amount hoping that someone after you then is going to think they have better than you and raise back, NOW YOU GO ALLIN and one of the two is bound to think 'OH NO YOU DONT TAKE THIS POT THAT EASILY' because you played as if you got semi-lucky and are hoping they both fear you except you actually hit fullhouse or something and used their aggression against themselves. This is near-impossible to pull off on 5/6 man tables where you are usually always ending up 1v1 in any hand where serious profit is to be made. In 1v1 hands, you can't mask your superstrength and have to raise big which allows the enemy to assess you better, you can't us others raising to trap someone like that which will mean you make less per hour guaranteed as your 'tricky' plays are always plays where your enemy has accurate assessment of your hands.

2) You know how in tournaments, all the people who played earlier like kamikaze donkeys are now running the show? Yeah, see tournaments are not for Buddhists they got no Karma whatsoever. You get unlucky once to these morons and you're out end of story. In cash games, psychos going all-in preflop are a goldmine if you stay long enough and endure hard enough. The more they lose to you, the more they want to take back from you. Once you win enough and know that they'll keep trying to take it from you in large chunks guess what you can do? There's a 'leave table' button ;) In cash games, bad players genuinely increase the profits of good/smart players due to one hand never 'knocking out' a person with any permanent sense. Of course, having the bankroll management to never walk in with 100% of your bankroll is a given and if you do this, then it becomes like a tournament where you can be permanently dominated by a donkey due to one bad hand, always be willing to buy-in at least 2 more times (so 3 buy-ins) as 2 bad beats is quite a plausible outcome before the reversal ensues.

Sorry but the only thing you explained was the difference between the two modalities. I still think that laninteligensia is in adapting to the game that you face and the players you face. I get tired of seeing players in cash playing as if it were a tournament and I do not see where the intelligence of these players is
 
R

Rational Madman

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
2,478
Chips
0
Madman, some of your points are valid. Your manner of expressing your ideas is what may get in the way....that is, unless you are trying to be as controversial as possible in order to get more responses to your posting. Imitating Will Kassouf does not help get your point across.
I hear ya....but those poor idiots who belong to Mensa and play tournaments, I feel sorry for them. I am sure that Antonio Esfandiari and Daniel Negreanu are kicking themselves for playing in tournaments.
Both Negreanu and Esfandiari make their living from cash games, I don't care what the 'Negranu is a tournament diehard' media tells you, he earns at cash games spends at tourns, just like all pros do.
 
vitalii029

vitalii029

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 10, 2017
Total posts
649
Chips
0
I think zhlya every person has its own strategy of the game some like to play in tournaments and some cash games as you like one and plays people will not play where he doesn't like.and there are tournaments where people relate to conventional chips as real money and cherish them
 
Real Money Poker - Real Money Casinos Top 10 Games Poker Tells
Top