Brutal card protection ruling

[Tammy]

Unlikely. Put something on top and keep them behind the line, even if they get pulled into the muck they'll be easy to get back out again if you have to because the chip on top will weigh them together, dealer will notice there's something on top of cards before mucking, or will notice when pulling them in that they are heavier than normal which is why a heavy card protector can be good too. Something bright and heavy is the best I guess



Pretty sure most card rooms let you have this opportunity.

Although fwiw I've played probably 30 live tournaments at my local casino where the dealers aren't that great and I've never seen/heard of any cards being accidently mucked while people are all in.

The only times I've ever seen a player's hand accidentally mucked was when they didn't have their cards protected. You also have to watch out not only for the dealer, but clueless or assinine players at the table. I was playing at a live cash game at the local casino once, and this one guy sitting next to me had it in for another guy across the table, who, incidentally wasn't protecting his cards. Apparently, the guy next to me had suffered one too many bad beats from the other guy. After ass-guy tells me his tale of woe, and pointing out how the other guy didn't have his hand protected, he says to me, "Watch this." Then proceeded to turn his head in the other direction, and fold his cards by flinging them nonchalantly across the table, where they landed on the other guy's cards (if I remember correctly, the other guy had raised the pot). So the other guy's hand was declared dead by the dealer, and the poor guy just had this look on his face like, "WTF??" The a-hole next to me was given a talking to by the dealer about how to properly fold his hand, but he just feigned ignorance ("Oh, sorry about that"), then smirked to me later. So yeah, diligence at all times!

 

[poker d player]

The only times I've ever seen a player's hand accidentally mucked was when they didn't have their cards protected. You also have to watch out not only for the dealer, but clueless or assinine players at the table. I was playing at a live cash game at the local casino once, and this one guy sitting next to me had it in for another guy across the table, who, incidentally wasn't protecting his cards. Apparently, the guy next to me had suffered one too many bad beats from the other guy. After ass-guy tells me his tale of woe, and pointing out how the other guy didn't have his hand protected, he says to me, "Watch this." Then proceeded to turn his head in the other direction, and fold his cards by flinging them nonchalantly across the table, where they landed on the other guy's cards (if I remember correctly, the other guy had raised the pot). So the other guy's hand was declared dead by the dealer, and the poor guy just had this look on his face like, "WTF??" The a-hole next to me was given a talking to by the dealer about how to properly fold his hand, but he just feigned ignorance ("Oh, sorry about that"), then smirked to me later. So yeah, diligence at all times!

If this were to happen and you had a protector on your cards.... are your cards "protected" ? btw.. I hope I dont run into assman in any of my games.

 

[OzExorcist]

I agree with everyone that the ruling was correct as it played out , and I have heard of this happening many times . but what pisses me off is why do dealers always freakin touch peoples cards ? keep your freaking hands off my cards unless they are over the same line that constitutes a bet . what would be the ruling if when he reached out for my cards I hammered his hand , smiled and said sorry those are live did you not hear me call all in dumb ass ? please pay attention if your going to deal for us jmo

Dealers don't "always" touch people's cards - saying that is no better than the people who say that their aces "always" get cracked, you're using a massive chunk of selective recall. It's only the exceptional hands where something goes wrong that anybody even bothers to talk about the dealer, the thousands of other hands that were dealt perfectly go without mention.

I'm assuming from your tone that you perform your job with 100% accuracy every minute of every day and you've never made a mistake ever?

 

[Pascal-lf]

If this were to happen and you had a protector on your cards.... are your cards "protected" ? btw.. I hope I dont run into assman in any of my games.

If you cards and weighed down & covered by a chip then there won't be any chance for the folded cards to get mixed up

 

[jaymfc]

so the rules should say everyone must use a card protector .
or it should be in my opinion the same as a bet if your chips are out past a certain point , it's a bet . the same should go for the cards , if they are not out past the line , then the dealer should not touch them .
I do understand that anyone can make a mistake but why would any dealer be so as to take cards that are right up against the rail in front of you ?
would anyone fold and just leave their cards there ?
I assume the dealers are just trying to do their job and not really paying attention to the game itself .

Dealers don't "always" touch people's cards - saying that is no better than the people who say that their aces "always" get cracked, you're using a massive chunk of selective recall. It's only the exceptional hands where something goes wrong that anybody even bothers to talk about the dealer, the thousands of other hands that were dealt perfectly go without mention.
agreed
I'm assuming from your tone that you perform your job with 100% accuracy every minute of every day and you've never made a mistake ever?

no sir you misinterpreted my tone , I meant no offense to most dealers , including you . and no I am not perfect nor do I expect perfection from anyone else . I mentioned several times that I do understand mistakes by anyone . my apologies if you were offended . my tone comes from the emotion of pain suffered by anyone who is the victim of a mistake and I may get carried away at times . as a dealer can you comment on the other stuff I said about rules and where you get cards from to muck . although both dealers in this case may be good dealers , you do agree that mucking someones cards who did not fold comes from momentarily not paying attention ?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

although both dealers in this case may be good dealers , you do agree that mucking someones cards who did not fold comes from momentarily not paying attention ?

Unless the dealer intentionally mucked the cards then a momentary lapse of concentration is the only way the dealer could muck a live hand.

Everyone makes mistakes. No exceptions.

The thing with dealers is unlike most other people, when they make a mistake at work its really difficult for them to cover it up. There isn't a single person reading this thread who hasn't, at some point, done something accidentally wrong at work and covered it up because they thought they would probably get into trouble if the boss found out. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time. "Pilot error" is officially listed as the cause of about 75% of all aviation accidents.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

BTW whilst its the dealers job to deal hands and not muck live cards, its also the players job to protect his hand at all times (its in the rules). So when a dealer mucks an unprotected hand, not only was the dealer not doing his job properly, but the player whose job it is to protect his hand was also failing to do his job correctly.

If the player had done his job properly, it makes it much harder for the dealer to make a mistake in his job.

 

[jimeurchipss]

Thats why they call it a "CARD PROTECTOR".I always warn people to know the rules of the tourney or game ther playing..It was correct ruling.and as for what if dealer is his friend?you should use the PROTECTOR for this reason and he cant screw you..Its YOUR job to protect your hand NOT the dealers

 

[LarkMarlow]

Just a note to add: as in the vid WVH provided, your cards are especially vulnerable when sitting next to the dealer. Be ultra vigilant when that's where you're positioned.

 

[PurgatoryD]

Thanks for the input, everyone. In the few times I've played live, I've never felt that it was an issue. I'm usually right on top of my cards so a dealer would really have to work to get them. Also, if I back away or need to think for an extended period (or pretend like I'm thinking), then I'll usually drop a chip on them. Although, after reading about the jerk who threw his cards across the table, it sounds like I have to protect my cards from other players as well.

I was just thinking, chips are light... if you slide cards with a chip on them into another pile of cards, the chip is just going to slide off. Maybe I'll start using a 10 pound barbell as a chip protector just to be safe.

Is there any limit on the size of chip protectors?

 

[OzExorcist]

no sir you misinterpreted my tone , I meant no offense to most dealers , including you . and no I am not perfect nor do I expect perfection from anyone else . I mentioned several times that I do understand mistakes by anyone . my apologies if you were offended . my tone comes from the emotion of pain suffered by anyone who is the victim of a mistake and I may get carried away at times . as a dealer can you comment on the other stuff I said about rules and where you get cards from to muck . although both dealers in this case may be good dealers , you do agree that mucking someones cards who did not fold comes from momentarily not paying attention ?

Understood.

On your other points I agree making everyone use a card protector would go a long way to solving the problem but I suspect a rule like that would fail on the grounds of practicality - simply put, no card room is going to refuse to take someone's money just because they're not using a card protector. The rules also clearly state that people who choose not to use a card protector do so at their own risk. There's only so many rules you can make to protect people from themselves.

Keep in mind too that not all tables have betting lines on them and even on tables that do have them the line doesn't necesarily mean anything. Some casinos enforce that action made over the line is binding, others don't. So treating cards the same way as chips in that way won't necessarily solve anything.

So in short I don't think changing the rules is a viable solution. If anything I think it might actually create more confusion since there's no way of enforcing a new rule in every card room and the current card protection rules are among the few that are already pretty much universal.

As to the cause of the problem ultimately yes, inattention on the dealer's part is almost always to blame in situations like this. Depending on what else happened there can be other contributing factors though. I know personally if anything comes inside a certain area on the table in front of me while I'm dealing muscle memory takes over and I gather that object in. Usually it's folded cards, sometimes it's chips for change or bets where the player has folded to a raise. I'm sure other dealers do similar things. Dealers have to keep track of the actions of nine or more players all at once which means a heap of multitasking, particularly preflop. Because we have to multitask sometimes our brains automate some processes and I think this is the reason some mistakes happen. It's not just pure inattention because if that were the case we'd be staring blankly into space rather than mucking live hands

 

[bobsay225]

I never played live poker at a casino, just home games with my friends, and I have to say I'm really glad you posted this thread because I never even knew about this rule, I guess I should enforce this rule at our home games too just so when any of us do go to a casino we are aware of this and are used to protecting our cards at all times, I feel so dumb about not knowing about this rule before, thanks for discussing this.

If this was enforced at some "home games" I have been at it would be a storyline on "Behind Bars":fight: :fight: :fight:

 

[bgomez89]

btw shove 88 pre in that situation

 

[nightmoves44]

hm

Ive never played at a live casino yet,so this lesson I shall remember.Thanks for the warning.

 

[OzExorcist]

Is there any limit on the size of chip protectors?

Most poker rooms have a limit, yeah - usually it's that the protector has to be a fair bit smaller than the cards so that it can't fully cover them etc.

 

[poker d player]

If you cards and weighed down & covered by a chip then there won't be any chance for the folded cards to get mixed up

My question was in reference to having another player muck their cards into yours. Does a chip protector protect your cards (keep them live) in this situation ?

 

[noW]

My question was in reference to having another player muck their cards into yours. Does a chip protector protect your cards (keep them live) in this situation ?

Yea because your protected cards will not get into his cards so its none of your business.:thrasher:

 

[essambb]

woow i never heared some thing like that before they really should fire that dealer the dealer should ask before he muck any hand the player to be sure if he want to fold
this is a truley live miss click

 

[naruto_miu]

woow i never heared some thing like that before they really should fire that dealer the dealer should ask before he muck any hand the player to be sure if he want to fold
this is a truley live miss click

The dealer should be fired for making a mistake? Come on the dealer is Human, not a Computer, we all have our days, but to state such things is not right at all...

As to the O.P what happened to you, Happened, and it was a mistake that it happened, I'm sry it had to happen at a Critical time...It wasn't meant to be, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH....XXXXX

Wish you the best for next time

 

[Swear Engine]

On your other points I agree making everyone use a card protector would go a long way to solving the problem but I suspect a rule like that would fail on the grounds of practicality - simply put, no card room is going to refuse to take someone's money just because they're not using a card protector.

I don't have a very wide experience of casinos/cardrooms but my local and the two others i've visited all sold protectors ( i bought at each place as souvenirs). Is this not common? If not then it prolly should be, they're missing out on a couple of quid per player.

 

[OzExorcist]

woow i never heared some thing like that before they really should fire that dealer the dealer should ask before he muck any hand the player to be sure if he want to fold

ROFL - overreaction much?!? If you performed your job perfectly every day of the year then made one small mistake one day and your boss fired you for it you'd be screaming blue murder and rightly so. Get some perspective. We're talking about dealing poker here, not flying a commercial airliner or anything.

Also we've established that this was clearly a brainfart on the part of the dealer. Making dealers verbally confirm that a player really wants to fold every time they think that might be the case wouldn't have helped in this situation. It would succeed in slowing every other hand down unnecessarily though.

I don't have a very wide experience of casinos/cardrooms but my local and the two others i've visited all sold protectors ( i bought at each place as souvenirs). Is this not common? If not then it prolly should be, they're missing out on a couple of quid per player.

I don't know how common that is - AFAIK my local casino doesn't sell them. In a lot of ways it's a moot point though because just about any object can be used as a card protector. Availability isn't the problem, and it's not like OP's problem would have been avoided if only someone had tried to sell him a card protector on the way in the card room door. I guarantee he probably had several items on his person he could have used as a card protector.

Just think for a moment too about a card room where it's mandatory for players to use a card protector. Live poker games already get precious few hands per hour, how many more would be lost to the time it would take to have the dealer ensure that every player uses their card protector on every hand? Would the action be expected to stop every time someone was sitting with an unprotected hand? As with the suggestion above it would create many more problems than it would solve.

To sum up the whole issue:

- We only hear about occurences like this very rarely, despite the sheer number of hands of live poker that get dealt every year and the frequency with which people seem to feel the need to get on the internet and complain when it does happen. We can therefore surmise that occurences like this are rare and very much the exception to the rule.

- The existing rules are effective. If players don't protect their cards they do so at their own risk and every time something like this comes up the response will always be "it wouldn't have happened if you had have protected your hand". Protect your hands and we need never have this discussion again.

- All the "solutions" people are coming up with cause a heap more problems than they solve if you stop to think about them for a second.

 

[naruto_miu]

ROFL - overreaction much?!? If you performed your job perfectly every day of the year then made one small mistake one day and your boss fired you for it you'd be screaming blue murder and rightly so. Get some perspective. We're talking about dealing poker here, not flying a commercial airliner or anything.

Also we've established that this was clearly a brainfart on the part of the dealer. Making dealers verbally confirm that a player really wants to fold every time they think that might be the case wouldn't have helped in this situation. It would succeed in slowing every other hand down unnecessarily though.



I don't know how common that is - AFAIK my local casino doesn't sell them. In a lot of ways it's a moot point though because just about any object can be used as a card protector. Availability isn't the problem, and it's not like OP's problem would have been avoided if only someone had tried to sell him a card protector on the way in the card room door. I guarantee he probably had several items on his person he could have used as a card protector.

Just think for a moment too about a card room where it's mandatory for players to use a card protector. Live poker games already get precious few hands per hour, how many more would be lost to the time it would take to have the dealer ensure that every player uses their card protector on every hand? Would the action be expected to stop every time someone was sitting with an unprotected hand? As with the suggestion above it would create many more problems than it would solve.

To sum up the whole issue:

- We only hear about occurences like this very rarely, despite the sheer number of hands of live poker that get dealt every year and the frequency with which people seem to feel the need to get on the internet and complain when it does happen. We can therefore surmise that occurences like this are rare and very much the exception to the rule.

- The existing rules are effective. If players don't protect their cards they do so at their own risk and every time something like this comes up the response will always be "it wouldn't have happened if you had have protected your hand". Protect your hands and we need never have this discussion again.

- All the "solutions" people are coming up with cause a heap more problems than they solve if you stop to think about them for a second.

Explained it Perfectly, Couldn't have put it better even If I tried

 

[Chemist]

Still sounds unfair if it was the dealers mistake I would have thought the hand should be dead and pot split between the two remaining players.

Makes you want to take a fork with you. Touch my cards, feel my fork.
(pin hand and cards to table before they can disappear).

The other guy was a Douche. Anyone with any decency would have realised it was the dealers mistake and been happy to accept the ruling and the pot uncontested.

 

[vger76]

Unfortunately, this happened to you. But in every casino I ever played, it is the players' responsibility to protect your cards. I have seen this happen before. Use anything to top your cards.
My slighly oversize protector is orange with Harley writing on it. I was playing at Harrah's in Vegas a few years ago and said AI leaving my protector on my cards. A drunk screamed what about her other chip? I said that is my card protector. But the drunk continued to get louder with his comments that several other tables were now watching. The dealer wasn't a regular since this was during the wsop and was lost as what to do. I called the floor (not the dealer) and of course the floor told the other player that he was wrong and to STFU. The player continued to make smart remarks for several more hands till he got knocked out.

 

[beantownmaniac]

I mean people make mistakes, dealers included. How would you resolve this issue if his cards are not clearly identifable from the muck, take his word for it ?

Why is the dealer grabbing and mucking the cards of the player who first announced all-in? I understand you have to protect your cards, but it's the dealers responsibility to keep track of the table action. Where the dealer made the mistake, the hand should have been voided and replayed. The OP got screwed. If anyone is wondering, I do play live games at Foxwoods casino. I've never seen this situation because I've never seen the dealer muck the cards of players, he always asks for their cards if they're not given to him. One question to the OP. Were your cards behind the bet line? If so, the dealer definitely shouldn't have touched them.