400th Post: A Losing Players Testimony

[paumarhas]

thanks for sharing and congrats on your 400th. and just remember all poker players lose from time to time you can't always win.
i'd stay away from "rush" poker too i haven't played it yet and don't want to.
gl on the felt.

 

[NiceNisus]

Chasing something like a gutshot straight draw isn't necessairly a bad thing. Just make sure you take the situation into account. For example, you have enough chips that calling to chase won't cripple you or hurt you much at all, and you need odds of 11:1 either immediately or implied (you think the player you are up against will easily pay you off if you hit).
Then after chasing the turn, you need to consider check/folding when your draw misses and someone bets giving you horrible odds, or leading out with a tiny bet (which looks weak in the first place so this isnt a great move), to try to see the river cheaply. Just make sure you don't spew when you miss and don't spew trying to hit.

 

[Vfranks]

Hey on pt3 for the hud, do people usually check the [] stats from current cash limit only? ...and if you don't click that will it combine limit and NL stats?

 

[RoyalFish]

I obviously play way too loose. Especially from the BB and SB eh? WOW I mean I am positive in every position, BUT the SB and BB and button too actually but not as much as the BB. The BB and SB loses together are more than I have even lost total I believe.

There's an easy, instant +EV adjustment, then. Figure out what your win (loss) rate from the SB and BB would be if you -always- folded the blinds. If you're currently doing worse than that, start always folding the blinds unless you're the BB and it's checked to you. It's not optimal, for sure, but if it's better than what you're doing now...

RF

 

[Vfranks]

There's an easy, instant +EV adjustment, then. Figure out what your win (loss) rate from the SB and BB would be if you -always- folded the blinds. If you're currently doing worse than that, start always folding the blinds unless you're the BB and it's checked to you. It's not optimal, for sure, but if it's better than what you're doing now...

RF

Gotcha. I also get into trouble with marginal hands when I see a free flop from the BB, but that's just me being stoopid playing marginal hands oops lol.


Does anyone know the answer to my question about pt3 [] stats from current cash limit? ^^

 

[RoyalFish]

I do not click the current cash limit only button, and have only played limit briefly (and accidentally).

RF

 

[Vfranks]

Does PT3 recognize rush hands diffrently than ring hands? Sorry for the dumb questions.

 

[Egon Towst]

For cash games, I'd suggest looking at Ed Miller's books - I haven't read No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice by Sklansky and Miller, but I understand it's excellent.

It is good, but it is a very dull and difficult read. Unlikely to suit Vernon, since he has problems reading and absorbing Harrington, which is more approachable.

 

[Vfranks]

I mean I understand it, but I cant read it from front to back in one sitting without my head blowing up.

 

[RoyalFish]

I mean I understand it, but I cant read it from front to back in one sitting without my head blowing up.

You don't have to. Pick one thing and get better at that. Like playing from the blinds, for example. I've been playing for a couple years and just a few months ago spent some time really understanding set mining.

NLHE looks like a simple game, but it's deceptively complex. There's nothing wrong with taking it one step at a time.

RF

 

[brank]

you know what they say bout NLHE.....

seconds to learn and a lifetime to master. i forget who said that. pretty cliche but its still true.

 

[Vfranks]

BA-BAM! I think I got it set up ok for now.. box on left is: pf 3bet / fold to pf 3bet then new line and total 3bet /fold to 3bet total....then on the middle box its vp/pfr/af/Hands then on the box on the right its flop cbet/fold to flop cbet then below is turn then below is river... i dont think I need river necisarilly but oh well...att to steal and fold to flop bet and fold to t bet and wtsd and stuff like that is in the drop down menu, hope that's easily enough acess for me.

 

[Sean Pilgrim]

Careful with that 3-bet popup at those stakes... Serious most of them don't know how to fold crap...

 

[Sean Pilgrim]

Glad to see you are trying it out! If you need any help at all with PT3 we're all here to help ya!

 

[Vfranks]

Yeah I know most 3bets are AA KK AK at these stakes. And they call 3bets and 4bets with 25s or anything. But hear its good to get used to the stat for when you move to higher stakes

 

[ben_rhyno]

I really enjoyed reading this post, you sound quite similar to me and the way I've played recently. I've started to read HoH:Tournaments vol.1 and sklansky theory of poker, but my play hasn't gone that well since. I've started from a 0 bankroll this time round and am desperately trying to improve myself, because like you, I know if I don't I'm gonna just keep emptying my wallet into pokerstars.
The thread was painfully honest in some places, and must have taken a lot to get it all out there. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Vfranks]

I really enjoyed reading this post, you sound quite similar to me and the way I've played recently. I've started to read HoH:Tournaments vol.1 and sklansky theory of poker, but my play hasn't gone that well since. I've started from a 0 bankroll this time round and am desperately trying to improve myself, because like you, I know if I don't I'm gonna just keep emptying my wallet into pokerstars.
The thread was painfully honest in some places, and must have taken a lot to get it all out there. I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks, it actually felt good to get it all out.


I spent all week playing 2nl, and 70c blt sat sng's. I went down, than back up to even AND then ahead a little. I have been reading strategy and stuff, and realized that I was trying to be way to tricky at the micro stakes. I think too much, and bluff too often. Once I realized that, I started doing a lot better. It is still a small sample tho, so we will see after some time.
I got the bonus, and tried rush again to clear it faster, which made me lose 30$ real fast after going on tilt. So I got away from poker, and came back after watching Videos/Strategy etc., played rush again and instead of being -30$ am now back to about even, but down $10 if I had not released some of the bonus. That all happened yesterday, the rush thing. I think I am just gonna clear this bonus on rush, than go back to working my way up the regular ring games or SNG's, still haven't fully decide.

 

[Makwa]

OP, got the gist from skimming your epic story. If you can't make it at poker, I suggest starting a career as a writer of long, exhaustive detailed books, fiction or non. Aim for 1K pages and u will be there in no time.... Its like War and Peace on Cardshat!!

GL w yr game

BTW In my experience chasing bonuses often costs more than its worth. Play suffers when u r forced to grind rather than think through your games...

 

[brank]

hey vernon, was playin with you at FT the other day on a couple tables. dont know if u noticed and maybe u have chat of cause i gave u a whats up. you were in the BB when i had the button on both tables. fwiw i thought you were playin good. you 3 bet me once and i folded AQo cause you were playin pretty tight and i was OOP. anyways, good luck.

 

[Vfranks]

Yeah I would have responded had I seen your chat, but I didn't see it, Sorry Bud. I usually don't look at the chat if I have more than 1 table up, because it usually ends up being disastrous for me. Was it Ring game or SnG we were playing? Yeah I have stopped trying to over think my plays, and just trying to stay pretty tight. I also have been browsing the forum. AND I been going through my sessions to see where I am losing money. It helps A LOT.
I did kinda chase the bonus, and tilted and lost some money. But I recovered. Still have 15$ to clear, but Makwa is right about chasing bonus'. I started trying to clear this bonus like I had always done playing outside of my limits. Lost a lil and before I knew it I had lost 30$ on tilt. So I stopped playing for about a day, came back with a clear head, and after reading and watching some vids, and now my 40$ roll has jumped to over 100. I did get 20$ from the CC freeroll cash!(woot!), and decide to put 10$ on a 10nl RUSH table last night before bed, and got a NICE RUN! left with a 56$ stack after ~1 1/2 hours, cleared some of my bonus, and just had fun and thought about everything i did.
It's not that I can't win at poker, but when I tilt... Like sometimes I open too many tables, or just start playing really lag for some reason or just all kinds of crazy stuff. I have been doing better at dealing with it I think, but I always think I am doing well, and the next thing I know I screw up somehow. Hopefully that wont happen again, we'll see. I am gonna prolly withdrawl soon while I can, because when I get more money in my account I usually do stoopid things. So if I just withdrawl and drop down in limits, and build a BR again. I have had times where I have grinded my roll up to having 20 buyins for 10nl and could withdrawn 100$ and still had the 20 buyins, but didn't and blew it all. I just can't let that happen again.


...Damn I'm writing a book again...lemme stop before I have to get a publisher.

 

[ozboyy]

Yep, been there doing that!! I just figure that when I get up in BR I won't keep playing too high in stakes until I learn how to listen to the words I keep saying " stop chasing all the way and leave the KK alone when reraised! But we all go up and down! When it all comes down to it, it is one little fact that we can all win whenever we like; WE JUST DON'T WANT TO!!!!!!!

 

[ozboyy]

There is one suggestion I would make to anyone playing sats to the BLT V, that is play the 50 cent rebuy to the Double Deuce instead, limit yourself to a number of rebuys, a couple and the add on. BLT sat returns 2.20 for 75cents/DD sat returns for me usually 20.00 for 1-2 dollars and is much more cost effective!!

 

[Teebone]

I don't think it's necessarily patience that's the issue. Feel free to tell me I'm way off base, but hunting and fishing are completely different from a psychological perspective from poker.

When you're sat at a lake fishing (or in the woods hunting), what happens is ultimately out of your control. You can find what you perceive to be a good spot, pick your bait appropriately and cast your line, but ultimately the excitement is dependent on circumstances that are out of your control. You can do everything right (or as right as possible) and not get a single bite in hours. The vast majority of your excitement is derived from what may happen rather than what is actually happening at a specific moment in time.

Poker is hugely different. I think part of your problem is that in poker we can often make our own instantly gratifying excitement, at the expense of optimal play. Say you have a gutshot or something and you're bet into, it's innately exciting when you call and that gutshot hits. Even the thought of that gutshot hitting is exciting - infinitely more exciting than folding and nothing happening, even if folding is the clearly preferable option.

This ties in with your BRM problem too. Playing for pennies isn't exciting - playing for significant portions of your bankroll is. Spending an hour after a session analysing your hands isn't exciting, but it's necessary.

So yeah, scratch the patience angle. I don't think it's a problem with you being impatient - I think it's a problem with you placing too much emphasis on seeking instant excitement and gratification. Although on the face of it the two seem like the same thing, there are, as I've explained above, subtle differences.

Ultimately you are the only one who can choose whether you want to continue as you apparently have been - by viewing poker as entertainment and a gateway to excitement, or by moving the goalposts and changing your entire outlook on what actually is exciting. All the hours and days you spend fishing ultimately seem like they're truly worth it that one time every few months (or however long) you reel in an absolute beast of a fish, and in a similar way it would pay to adjust your mindset so that all the hours and days you spend playing poker in a somewhat unexciting manner suddenly become worth it when in 6 months time (or whatever) you can post a graph that shoots upwards, and when in another 6 months time (or whatever) you can cash out a decent sum of money and buy something funky. Playing optimal poker isn't necessarily instantly rewarding or exciting, but the best players derive their 'excitement' (should they need to derive excitement from poker) from the long-term rewards that playing optimal poker brings.

This thread is a good starting point. While I'm not going to patronize you with crap like "YEAH DUDE IT TOOK REAL BALLS FOR YOU TO POST THIS THREAD" because it's ultimately just words on the internet, I will say that this thread is refreshing because of things like every time someone makes a "post your graph" thread >95% of the graphs being upward lines, despite the fact that I'd guess that way over half the semi-regular/regular posters here are still long-run losing players.

I just wanna say bravo for this post, it really hits the nail on the head for me. Never actually thought about poker this way i was definately looking for instant gratification.

Ive been having the same problems.

Im going to benchmark this post and come back and read it everyday before i play poker lol. You have to think long term.

 

[Vfranks]

I think I am just gonna clear this bonus on rush, than go back to working my way up the regular ring games or SNG's, still haven't fully decide.

Yeah when I did that post, I was bonus chasing. Why chase a bonus if you are not making money doing it? I decided just to play my regular game, on regular ring tables and it feels so much better when you are on a winning session, playing your normal game, and that little box pops up and says, "We just released $5 of your bonus."
Feels much better than playing a game you normally wouldn't and suffering a loss, than needed to make the bonus just to break even again.(Which is what I did in the past, and even started to do this bonus but luckily recognized what I was doing before it got outta hand.)


....It's not that I can't ever play Rush, but I have to want to play to have fun, instead of thinking of it as needing to clear a bonus, or earn FPP's(or as a grind in general). So I have been sticking to Full Ring Standard tables, and a few SnG's here and there(all within BRM of course) , + CC games for fun(Which I FT the FreeRoll and Sunday game!! so I have cashed in 2 of the 2 I played for CC games this month!)...

 

[dg1267]

You sound a whole lot like me (except for that "potatoes to lemonade part... I just usually make mashed potatoes. Call me crazy). But I do the same thing. I will get on here and read through C9's strat guides, anything belgo, FP, or many others write as well, and I will do very well for a limited time. But then, I hit a tough streak and all goes to shit!

I've read HOH vol. 1. It taught me that poker books are very boring to read and that I can't even do simple math. Unfortunately, that advice hasn't made me any money yet. But I keep trudging through the mud trying to work my way out of the micros to where I really do feel I could do better. There are times I would love to just deposit $500 and move up there now, but that doesn't seem too reasonable to me. For one I have a job, I own my own business, but work is slow right now and I don't have $500 to spare. For two, what do I learn by doing that? Not much.

Even though my winnings have not gotten any better, my game has. And I know it's just a matter of time before I break out and will be able to move up. I hope. From what I've seen about poker... it all depends.

Edit: Btw, I enjoyed reading your book entitled "OP'. LOL