Zooming around on nit Land!!

[Logan2]

Up to around 50% this couple days on Btn Acky, tbh i don´t think can go that high (70-80) because i suck postflop.
CO on the other hand is not going that good, people is 3bting me a lot on Btn when i steal from CO.
Sb vs BB is going fine, will try to post tomorrow some numbers.


Hand to laugh on me because we supossed not to fold sets but w/e.

Remember this is zoom and villain is unknown.

Poker Stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BTN: $2.50
SB: $3.86
BB: $5.00
UTG: $5.00
UTG+1: $5.38
UTG+2: $3.82
Hero (MP1): $5.00
MP2: $3.19
CO: $6.36

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is MP1 with 9

9

1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.87) J

Q

9

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.98, UTG+1 raises to $4.98 all in, Hero folds

Hero laydown or i suck?
Villain min-bet to induce and shoving 100bb´s looks so damn strong, sure could be Aces but he don´t 4b pre and decide to flat OOP so can´t discard JJ/QQ (8Ts/KTs is more rare been utg but everything is posible). On regular tables is probably a fist pump call but on zoom not sure.


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[Cafeman]

Just thought I'd pop in and say hi. I don't play zoom or FR, so take what I say with a big pinch of salt.

Tend to agree with Acky, they are bending over in the blinds, so it behoves you to stick it to them

50% sounds good for now though, especially if you are not as confident post flop. Connectedness, soooootedeness, highness = open.

Folding sets otf in a 3bet pot?! A tear just ran down my cheek. I think I must have something in my eye, cos I haven't cried for years.

No, I'm crying alright...

Back to your nitfest, I'm OUT!

 

[Jackle43]

Up to around 50% this couple days on Btn Acky, tbh i don´t think can go that high (70-80) because i suck postflop.
CO on the other hand is not going that good, people is 3bting me a lot on Btn when i steal from CO.
Sb vs BB is going fine, will try to post tomorrow some numbers.


Hand to laugh on me because we supossed not to fold sets but w/e.

Remember this is zoom and villain is unknown.

Poker Stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BTN: $2.50
SB: $3.86
BB: $5.00
UTG: $5.00
UTG+1: $5.38
UTG+2: $3.82
Hero (MP1): $5.00
MP2: $3.19
CO: $6.36

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is MP1 with 9

9

1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.87) J

Q

9

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.98, UTG+1 raises to $4.98 all in, Hero folds

Hero laydown or i suck?
Villain min-bet to induce and shoving 100bb´s looks so damn strong, sure could be Aces but he don´t 4b pre and decide to flat OOP so can´t discard JJ/QQ (8Ts/KTs is more rare been utg but everything is posible). On regular tables is probably a fist pump call but on zoom not sure.


​

I dunno about this fold? Just Gii! I cant fold a set here but maybe im a spewtard?
Just so many hands in a 3bet pot love getting it in if they have any draw/pair

Get it in.

 

[acky100]

you can open 100% of buttons and check fold every flop you miss and you will still be taking money off them guys if they are folding that much, simple maths. No postflop involved. but yeah 50% is fine, just something to think about...

 

[Cafeman]

This is absolutely true. If we min open the button we need them to both fold >57% of the time to insta-profit.

 

[Logan2]

Just thought I'd pop in and say hi. I don't play zoom or FR, so take what I say with a big pinch of salt.

Tend to agree with Acky, they are bending over in the blinds, so it behoves you to stick it to them

50% sounds good for now though, especially if you are not as confident post flop. Connectedness, soooootedeness, highness = open.

Folding sets otf in a 3bet pot?! A tear just ran down my cheek. I think I must have something in my eye, cos I haven't cried for years.

No, I'm crying alright...
Back to your nitfest, I'm OUT!

you can open 100% of buttons and check fold every flop you miss and you will still be taking money off them guys if they are folding that much, simple maths. No postflop involved. but yeah 50% is fine, just something to think about...

This is absolutely true. If we min open the button we need them to both fold >57% of the time to insta-profit.

I don´t like min-bet on btn because feel it induce regs to 3b you lighter but both have a good point. If people is folding so much should try to extract the most there.
I think can start trying to open any2 on BTN vs nits-regs (biggest pool there) and calm down a little vs fish-loose players, sure need to keep and eye on 3b stats on regs.

So far on around 5k hands looks promising, will see how it goes after opening more or until they adapt..


Also Sb was stealing 17% i think, so that is improving a lot too. BB vs Sb still folding too much

 

[Logan2]

35,000 hands reach it, this mean i´m half way of my goal of 70,000 hands on this level. I think finally getting it to Zoom, will see.

Graph and WR so far.



Total hands : 35,084
Total WinRate: 4.25bb/100
Last 15k hands WR: 9.60bb/100

Next Graph when reach 50k.


​

 

[Logan2]

This get out of my hands because betting so small on all streets.

At the time think that betting small could keep there 77/88/AK/AQ (QQ+ probably stay no matter what).
Board was draw heavy but his range was so short that don´t even think on that.
I think should bet bigger on all streets and avoid this.
As played what we do on river?

Villain is 7/0 3b:0 on 61 hands

Poker Stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BTN: $5.07
SB: $1.73
BB: $5.48
UTG: $1.45
Hero (UTG+1): $5.12
UTG+2: $6.77
MP1: $5.59
MP2: $6.81
CO: $6.94

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG+1 with 9

9

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, 6 folds, BB calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.42) T

9

5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, BB calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.82) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.47, BB calls $0.47

River: ($1.76) 6

(2 players)
BB bets $0.85, Hero ??

I put him on 55+/AQ+/KQs. Then we beat 55/66/77/88/QQ/KK/AA, but we are beat by JJ/TT/KQ/AdKd/AdQd. I don´t think 77/88 bet river there, not sure on rest.

There is other combos that beat us and also we beat like Q8/78/AJ/TJ/KJ but probably not on his range.

thoughts?.




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[Tom102]

Good luck out there tiger.

 

[benevg]

I put him on 55+/AQ+/KQs. Then we beat 55/66/77/88/QQ/KK/AA, but we are beat by JJ/TT/KQ/AdKd/AdQd. I don´t think 77/88 bet river there, not sure on rest.

There is other combos that beat us and also we beat like Q8/78/AJ/TJ/KJ but probably not on his range.

thoughts?​

​

meh, just call i think. it is a small bet by him as well, he may well be putting you on a weak hand. against a 7/0 it is weird, but i don't think you should be folding there. of the hands you listed, you beat roughly half, and you are getting 3:1, so completely worth it to call. if/when you lose - oh well.

 

[Logan2]

H1 On turn clearly he is on a draw, raising here looks like a bad idea and don´t want to fold with 5/1 odds,
so plan was to call turn and fire river if draws are blank, not sure about bet size because the times he hit something,
half pot should be better or is a spew and just check back?


Villain is 40/13 on 15 hands
Poker Stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

Hero (BTN): $5.00
SB: $8.19
BB: $5.02
UTG: $6.20
UTG+1: $14.88
UTG+2: $7.06
MP1: $2.24
MP2: $4.84
CO: $7.58

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BTN with J ♠ 9 ♦
5 folds, CO calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, 2 folds, CO calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.47) K ♠ 9 ♠ 7 ♣ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $0.27, CO calls $0.27

Turn: ($1.01) 3 ♣ (2 players)
CO bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($1.41) Q ♦ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.08, CO folds


--------------------------------------------------

H2 Best line on turn?, i feel that if we call and flush or str8 completes on river probably hard to extract from villain, but not sure if we could just shove turn?,
we don´t have much FE i think but at least that way we asure we got pay when hit our draws, but also not sure if enough odds with only 1 card to come?
Villain have $1.69 left.
Oh, and do we should fold pre to those lame 3b 2x when IP? getting a lot of those lately.

Villain is a nit-reg 6/4/1.3 3B:3 on 406 hands, 3B from BB is 5% (37)
Poker Stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BTN: $1.87
SB: $5.00
BB: $3.07
UTG: $1.09
UTG+1: $4.56
Hero (UTG+2): $5.00
MP1: $6.48
MP2: $12.29
CO: $7.96

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG+2 with T ♦ Q ♦
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 5 folds, BB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.62) 9 ♦ 8 ♣ 6 ♦ (2 players)
BB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.22) Q ♠ (2 players)
BB bets $0.78, Hero ??

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[NGavin_85]

I am quite new to this so my line might not be great.

H1 - I would check back - since he seems like someone who will call down with K and poor kicker.

H2 - I'd fold pre to a 3b 2x. But as played, I would call and hope for a 7, 9 or any diamond.

 

[benevg]

H1 On turn clearly he is on a draw, raising here looks like a bad idea and don´t want to fold with 5/1 odds,
so plan was to call turn and fire river if draws are blank, not sure about bet size because the times he hit something,

--------------------------------------------------

H2 Best line on turn?, i feel that if we call and flush or str8 completes on river probably hard to extract from villain, but not sure if we could just shove turn?,
we don´t have much FE i think but at least that way we asure we got pay when hit our draws, but also not sure if enough odds with only 1 card to come?
Villain have $1.69 left.
Oh, and do we should fold pre to those lame 3b 2x when IP? getting a lot of those lately.

Villain is a nit-reg 6/4/1.3 3B:3 on 406 hands, 3B from BB is 5% (37)
Poker Stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

BTN: $1.87
SB: $5.00
BB: $3.07
UTG: $1.09
UTG+1: $4.56
Hero (UTG+2): $5.00
MP1: $6.48
MP2: $12.29
CO: $7.96

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG+2 with T ♦ Q ♦
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 5 folds, BB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.62) 9 ♦ 8 ♣ 6 ♦ (2 players)
BB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.22) Q ♠ (2 players)
BB bets $0.78, Hero ??

​

your reasoning for H1 makes no sense at all. if he is on a draw, calling only makes sense if you have nothing and you want to bluff the river. raising on the other hand will get more money in the pot while you are ahead, and while he has a small chance to catch up. you will never get any money out of him on the river if his draw misses, so why not try on the turn?

H2 is weird. you are probably behind here, but folding is tough, you have so many outs... i think i call and reevaluate river, but that may be spew. the reason for this action is that he seems like the kind of guy who will not fold his AA if it is beat on the river, so you might as well just draw. definitely check back river if you miss and he checks though.

 

[acky100]

call turn seems like the only play, not one little bit attached to the top pair and couldnt be happier to fold it, but we folding turn getting them odds would be pretty bad

 

[Logan2]

So, shoving turn is spew, right?. I decide to shove turn and hit my outs and win the hand but unsure if was a spew.

Then Call>shove>fold??

If we call and we hit our outs on river then we bet like $2?? he still call most of the time right?, (not sure about this that´s why decide to shove).
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[acky100]

I dont think shoving is great because i think he only ever really has KK/AA here, i guess a non zero % he has something else but it's gotta be small, so with no fold equity putting more money into the pot without an equity advantage is bad right.

We have a clear call, as in it just can not be -EV under any circumstances really, we have like 17 outs or something and are getting close to 2:1 on a call so probably even have direct odds to call never mind implied which are always gonna be non zero.

call > fold > raise...

...if we think he has a nutty range here and is never folding to a shove (sounds accurate for a 5nl nit who is never gonna fold his AA probs)

Although fold and raise both seem far worse than calling, if he could at all have hands he could fold to a jam then raising would beat folding and if you had a lot of fold equity perhaps would even be the best play of the three.

 

[Logan2]

Yeah, it make sense.

Was playing with stove and got 44% equity on turn (vsKK+), so yeah, is a spew to shove with non FE. But then start to think, if we put villain mostly on AA/KK then we got 55% equity on flop.
What about raise flop to maybe get a free river card? (if he call the raise on flop then maybe check turn and we check back if we don´t hit turn). And if he jam on flop still we are ahead.

Too thin?




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[acky100]

Yeh i think raising flop would be fine, would probably wanna jam A turns, maybe a K too? if he did call, but yeah raise calling is fine probs have a slight equity advantage when he gets it in, but i still might just call the flop, not sure which will make us more money but raise getting it in with hardly any fold equity only offers us a small edge as we can see, plus rake will make that a bit smaller, whereas if we call and we hit a disguised out or even a 2d or something we can probably stack the bad nit and make him make a real big mistake.

 

[Logan2]

Thanks Acky and Benevg


Some hands.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/microcrushers-thread-216047/post-2115462.html
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[Logan2]

Start reading about when to play draws aggressevely ( here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/7...ng/cotw-when-play-draws-aggressively-1318597/ ) and i think understand more now what you was trying to say above, Acky.

It have many variables to consider and is not really easy to decide but sure helps more to realize what we want to acomplish and when.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On other things. (Big ramble next on the lines of TL;DR be warned).


Move down this week because a bad run but things getting ok again so start opening 2x+1x tables (2nl+5nl), will keep mixing couple more days and if things looks cool then probably up again in the week.

I think have a month now playing zoom and some things i realize so far are:

- Zoom is harder in the way that edges should be lower than normal tables, but because ranges are caped should be easy to put villains on hands because in general everyone is more nit than regular tables.

- Moving down when running bad even if still have enough BR in current level helps a lot to not tilt because doubles your BI´s instantly so it hurt less, also because you already beat the lower level with a bigger WR you instantly decrease variance too. Before i usually stay on current level until 10 or w/e BI´s down set to lose then move down and spend a month to restock and try to move up again. But now moving down when start to run bad and notice nothing go like expected helps a ton because as soon it pass can get back up with your BR still healthy for that level.

- This take me to next point which is: i need a bigger BR so i don´t have to move down even if run bad. I was playing with 90BI BR in the lower level so even when was concern if was playing bad or running bad, money was not a issue anymore which is a plus when things not go like you want. So need to design a new BRM that make sense to me. (90 probably too much so need to think a middle ground).

- After a month i still love Zoom, it really fit for me and is what i need right now. But still feel need to improve a lot, so will be back to study more and read the COTW threads on more regular basis and try to understand and apply stuff that some times i think should know by now, but or don´t understand it well or just forget it.

At the end of month should have around 80-100k hands on 5nl (more than half zoom) and 60-70k on 2nl, was trying to reach 100k on 2nl too before get back again to 5nl but i think is a waste of time.

Note aside, bink 2/2 Sunday Storm sattys yesterday, 3/4 this month.

 

[micromachine]

What I'm doing now is keeping 60BI for the previous level, meaning I can play 5nl with $120+ and 10nl with $300+ etc. Really simple and easy to remember and if you have to move down you've got 60BI for the previous level, which is plenty. Was going to do 50BI for the previous but want to be a little bit more cautious from now on.

 

[Logan2]

Yeah was thinking on those lines too. But it bugs me the gap between the bi amount we got for the lower level and the amount on current level.

Example you have $300, you got 60bi for 5nl and move up, but not have a bigger level cushiong, so lose 3-4 bis on 10nl which is standard for a day then sudenly you need to move down right away with $260 and not have the 60bi for the lower level anymore, and some times even end droping 2 levels. (52bi on 5nl after the 4bi down on 10nl (which are 8bi for 5nl), spew more bis on 5nl and feel bad and move down to 2nl)

So i think need to give the 60BI plus the shot amount on BI for the bigger level. However, this give something like this.

$120 --> 2nl (60bi)
$170 --> 5nl (10bi shot) (move down on $120)
$300 --> 5nl (60bi)
$400 --> 10nl (10bi shot) (move down on $300 with 60bi intact for 5nl)
But looks like too much so maybe just 5bi shots instead of 10, not sure, need to give it more thought because it looks like no big deal but now i feel it is a big deal, so need to get the better option.



​

 

[micromachine]

Yeah I guess you should do that if you want to always have a proper shot at a new level. I'm not so bothered about moving up and down though, like if I moved up to 10nl with $310 or $320 and lost a few BI I'll just go back down - np.