Why is donk betting so bad?

[ZZFLOP]

Donk Betting works best IMO

1) against 2 opponents, after a pre-flop raise and with one caller and you are in one of the blinds

2) on a flop that is likely to have missed the opponents, 5 3 2/ Q 6 6 ...

When you do this you should bet half the pot or a little less, but I think you should wait to donkbet, untill you have been at a table for a while and you have some notion on how your opponents play.

 

[nightmoves44]

jeesh

I didnt mean to get in the middle of something here.I didnt understand exactly what you mean by *donk betting*I apologize.I dont need to spam the forum.That wasnt my intention.Carry on,Ill keep my comments private.

 

[cardplayer52]

you're actually doing good against top pair. For instance,

Board: Ks Td 6s
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.313% 51.31% 00.00% 508 0.00 { AsTs }
Hand 1: 48.687% 48.69% 00.00% 482 0.00 { KhQh }

And a lot of people will actually fold top pair against a lot of aggression, so if you add fold equity, getting it all-in on flop with a pair + over + nut flush draws is pretty standard.

i'm making the check/raise play but finding i'm getting into trouble as the only hands that call my shoves(probably over shoves) are sets. do you have a rule of thumb as to what size stack(SPR) to make this play with?

 

[BelgoSuisse]

i'm making the check/raise play but finding i'm getting into trouble as the only hands that call my shoves(probably over shoves) are sets. do you have a rule of thumb as to what size stack(SPR) to make this play with?

You mean you check/raise all in? It's probably a bit of overkill when stacks are really deep. Whether it's good or not depends on how wide villain's range is, not just on SPR.

Note that only getting called by sets is a wonderful result. It means you are getting the maximum benefit from fold equity against the major part of his range (top pairs) that has 50-50 equity in the pot but folds. And you still have 30% equity against the sets.

 

[cardplayer52]

You mean you check/raise all in? It's probably a bit of overkill when stacks are really deep. Whether it's good or not depends on how wide villain's range is, not just on SPR.

Note that only getting called by sets is a wonderful result. It means you are getting the maximum benefit from fold equity against the major part of his range (top pairs) that has 50-50 equity in the pot but folds. And you still have 30% equity against the sets.

well to bring this back to donk betting. if i got a pair and flush draw. i normally just donk w/a pot sized bet. my reasoning is all those hands that are slightly ahead of me may fold to me on the flop. also top pair hands that raise me may still fold to a shove winning me a bigger pot than a check/raise would have. so IMO donk betting a hand like this is more profitable.

 

[KardKlub]

A donk bet can be bad, Because a check to the preflop raiser should by all accounts end up with a mandatory bet. (90%)

-If you fail to make a C-bet your loosing money in the long run and it helps diguise the times you make a great hand and everyone just expects you to try and steal the pot after the flop.

With this in mind, if you donk bet your not giving the preflop raiser any chance to try to steal the pot. If you bet into him and he missed he can fold too easily without investing any more chips so your now loosing money by DONKING.

Thats how i see it anyway

 

[Steveg1976]

A donk bet can be bad, Because a check to the preflop raiser should by all accounts end up with a mandatory bet. (90%)

-If you fail to make a C-bet your loosing money in the long run and it helps diguise the times you make a great hand and everyone just expects you to try and steal the pot after the flop.

With this in mind, if you donk bet your not giving the preflop raiser any chance to try to steal the pot. If you bet into him and he missed he can fold too easily without investing any more chips so your now loosing money by DONKING.

Thats how i see it anyway

Or if the preflop raiser is a nit and you made a set you can donk bet and then shove over the nit's raise with AA's that he just can't let go and get paid.

As has been said, there is a time and place for it. Most people are just wrong when they do it.

 

[zachvac]

Reread zach's post. He says the exact opposite. He says donk betting can be good, but that it's really bad when the intend is to know where you stand.

Actually it's even worse than this. You never fold out better while allowing some worse to raise you and get you off the hand. Say it's QT3r flop and you have AT. You donk bet to see where you stand. I had 56 for complete air but I know that a donk bet means you have a marginal hand that you don't want to stack. I will be raising you and barreling pretty much any turn/river that doesn't pair the board. Then if like there's an A and I barrel and you raise I can easily fold my air. So the point is not only does it fold out worse and get calls from better in general, sometimes it's even worse and allows worse hands to get you to fold.

 

[kidkvno1]

next person to post in this thread without clearly having at least vaguely understood the topic and not just having seen the word "donk" and taken it as a license to post garbage gets banned for a week.

(i.e. i've had to clean this thread up and i don't like having to do work)

Ok...
Heres my view.... When playing tight players a raise can get them to fold, and when you have a table that won't fold to a raise at a 2NL table it is best to limp in....... case in point AK back to back raised the 1st on .10 in the BB and won with ACE high, the 2nd hand i limped in and won well hitting an A, an a K, even took down a bigger pot the 2nd time.... I thought it would look "ODD" doing the same raise back to back, thought i would set a trap up....
1st time i thought i was beat, and the 2nd time i would try a trap....
I think my point is that you got better odds when raising...., I will post the 2 hands, to see how good i did, in the right place.
P.S zack i had to do it base on the table...

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Ok...
Heres my view.... When playing tight players a raise can get them to fold, and when you have a table that won't fold to a raise at a 2NL table it is best to limp in....... case in point AK back to back raised the 1st on .10 in the BB and won with ACE high, the 2nd hand i limped in and won well hitting an A, an a K, even took down a bigger pot the 2nd time.... I thought it would look "ODD" doing the same raise back to back, thought i would set a trap up....
1st time i thought i was beat, and the 2nd time i would try a trap....
I think my point is that you got better odds when raising...., I will post the 2 hands, to see how good i did, in the right place.
P.S zack i had to do it base on the table...

[ ] relates to donk betting
[x] tests the banning threat
[?] level

tbh, I think if you want to get voluntarily banned for a week, you can just ask the mods. No need to spam the threads until they oblige...

 

[Stu_Ungar]

It's not spam but what i picked up in a game last night, any raise i did was hammered down by a reraise, and some time 2 X the amount i raised, i would not call it with AK well on the button, and so i had to set traps on him.
EDIT: i will find the hands and post them later on today.

If you are playing quality cards and every time you raise you are being reraised, then you need to consider 4 betting or shoving.... They cant be dealt AA every time!!!

It seems like they have picked up on the fact that you wont call a 3 bet with anthing other than AA / KK and most of the time you wont have either of those hands, so they 3-bet you.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

It's not spam but what i picked up in a game last night, any raise i did was hammered down by a reraise, and some time 2 X the amount i raised, i would not call it with AK well on the button, and so i had to set traps on him.
EDIT: i will find the hands and post them later on today.

[ ] relates to donk betting

If you are playing quality cards and every time you raise you are being reraised, then you need to consider 4 betting or shoving.... They cant be dealt AA every time!!!

It seems like they have picked up on the fact that you wont call a 3 bet with anthing other than AA / KK and most of the time you wont have either of those hands, so they 3-bet you.

[ ] relates to donk betting

 

[zachvac]

Yeah I actually thought it was a level too especially quoting DMs post about the future posts needing to be on topic lol.

 

[jdeliverer]

lol, yeah there seem 2 b more n more donks these days... gotta get it in with the best and hope u dont get suked out on... lol

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

above poster wins the prize!

kidkvno1 claims a runners up spot.

 

[switch0723]

back to actually donk betting strategy, pretty much the only time i use it is in a situation where i'm in the bb with say 88 and call say an mp1 raise from a 12/9 with 65% 3bet after 2 others have called. Flop comes 7,8,9.

 

[bfw0082]

Donk Betting:

I think it is GOLD !!!

I would put donk betting into any bet outside of ABC Poker, and I think it does two things, makes ABC poker useless and gives the advantage to the donk.

isnt someone calling a donk bet, more of the donk themselves ?

Not sure of how you view what a donk bet is, there are different views on this, and since the OP doesn't have a definition who is to say this is what he is talking about.

but I have some Real Life examples:

limp in 22 UTG+1, CO, BTN, SB, BB

2 5 7 Flop, rainbow

Early in the game, 5 limpers, 100 pot

Send out a Donk bet: 3xPOT

Bet: 300, one caller, 700 pot, equal 1280 stacks

Turn: Ace.... action, all in....

Guy who calls 3xPOT bet ? AK of course and drawing dead

----------------------------

So there are times when a donk bet is GOLD

Just need to know when to do it, and when you got yourself a live one calling you....

 

[Steveg1976]

Donk Betting:

I think it is GOLD !!!

I would put donk betting into any bet outside of ABC Poker, and I think it does two things, makes ABC poker useless and gives the advantage to the donk.

isnt someone calling a donk bet, more of the donk themselves ?

Not sure of how you view what a donk bet is, there are different views on this, and since the OP doesn't have a definition who is to say this is what he is talking about.

but I have some Real Life examples:

limp in 22 UTG+1, CO, BTN, SB, BB

2 5 7 Flop, rainbow

Early in the game, 5 limpers, 100 pot

Send out a Donk bet: 3xPOT

Bet: 300, one caller, 700 pot, equal 1280 stacks

Turn: Ace.... action, all in....

Guy who calls 3xPOT bet ? AK of course and drawing dead

----------------------------

So there are times when a donk bet is GOLD

Just need to know when to do it, and when you got yourself a live one calling you....

It's not a matter of what you think a donk bet is. There is a definitive defintion of what a donk bet is and it has already been posted here.

LOL, "I know there is a definition for theft officer, but you know, this is what I think it is officer so I don't think you should arrest me." LOL

 

[bfw0082]

so then from reading the first few posts it seemed the posters were arguing over what the bet was, but from really trying hard to understand what their saying that it is a bet OOP.

so does it have to be a bluff to be a donk bet ?

I guess that is the part I am still struggling with here.

is it the sole act of leading out into the raiser or can it be check raising the original raiser ?

 

[BelgoSuisse]

so then from reading the first few posts it seemed the posters were arguing over what the bet was

There's no arguing whatsover. Donk betting is defined as betting out of position into the player who raised at the previous street. It's a definition, not something you can argue about.

 

[kidkvno1]

There's no arguing whatsover. Donk betting is defined as betting out of position into the player who raised at the previous street. It's a definition, not something you can argue about.

I posted a hand of mine, that would show donk betting with 66 well in Mid pos, with the board 2h Jd 3h 10s 3c well dealing with lose players...
Would that count as a donk move? I know i should of only done that on the button to, and they were to low to call with, even raise with.
And yes i have done what you said, called out of position, with 10 3...
And i even called in todays game with AK after finding out i called KK, but i was on the button when i did, i hit an ace, i also called a raise with AQ, well on the button and saw QQ, that was not a good call... I can say i did some donk calls, and moves in one game and it cost me big, with out even thinking of a full house and called with a flush.
After that i got it, that donk moves can cost you big time....
Is that better DM?

 

[switch0723]

people are getting confused between donk betting and a donk bet

 

[tenbob]

There's no arguing whatsover. Donk betting is defined as betting out of position into the player who raised at the previous street. It's a definition, not something you can argue about.

I posted a hand of mine, that would show donk betting with 66 well in Mid pos, with the board 2h Jd 3h 10s 3c well dealing with lose players...
Would that count as a donk move? I know i should of only done that on the button to, and they were to low to call with, even raise with.
And yes i have done what you said, called out of position, with 10 3...
And i even called in todays game with AK after finding out i called KK, but i was on the button when i did, i hit an ace, i also called a raise with AQ, well on the button and saw QQ, that was not a good call... I can say i did some donk calls, and moves in one game and it cost me big, with out even thinking of a full house and called with a flush.
After that i got it, that donk moves can cost you big time....
Is that better DM?

A donk bet is a term defined by Beglo above.

Your post relates to playing like a donk, two totally different things.

Edit : I wonder if a slantie can ban another slantie

 

[pifan]

i get the jist of what a donk bet is. ok senario if i am the preflop raiser in position with a hand like ak that misses the flop and early possition donk bets to me after flop what is the usual corse of action. i seem to run into sets and low pp in this senario all the time and my big pp and ak,aq are way behind. then do you 3 bet the donk bet or just let it go.

I guess what im asking is the donk bet usually a sign of a really strong hand by the early position after flop. or is it an attemt to steal usually.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

It obviously depends on the flop, but its usually viewed as weak because most flops are missed. If the hand is indeed strong, then it would have more likely been 4-bet preflop rather than just calling a 3-bet.

Also the first person to bet into a pot can be trying to push out a weaker hand, so again if the hand is really strong, the donk bet is less likely.