Why am I losing overall with AK?

[RodneyC86]

what are you talking about? at NL2 everybody pushes AI AQ/Ax so AK gets more value than on small/high stakes
you just might review your way to play it in some spots like in multipotway

It's a satirical post on fishes accidentally reading you right when you have AK because that's what they love to put you on the moment you go a PFR as a tight preflop player. And i don't know about you, even fishes aren't shoving Arag preflop much anymore. 2nl was definitely wilder 3 years ago,

 

[SwiftHax]

Drawing hand? I wouldn't say so. It's the 3rd best starting hand in Holdem. How to prove it? Say our opponent's range is QQ+ KQs AQo+ AQs+. Now we put in AKs and apparently it has 55.1% equity against this range, offsuit is 53%. Now, if we put in QQ which you would call a made hand, it only has 47.4% equity, JJ is even a bigger dog with 43.3% equity. Also, AK blocks KK and AA.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather have AK than any of your "made" hands.

Your winnings with AK largely depend on your post-flop play as opposed to AA and KK. Don't overplay it.

 

[Ubercroz]

I love drawing with AK.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Lol @ People who say that AK is not a drawing hand.

It is a drawing hand, for it is nothing more than ace-high until you've drawn into something. It's the best drawing hand (if suited), but it's still a drawing hand. Shouldn't be 4-bet PF, shouldn't be taken AIPF (generally, in cash games). It's strong, but you still need to make something of it.

 

[magicius]

Lol @ People who say that AK is not a drawing hand.

It is a drawing hand, for it is nothing more than ace-high until you've drawn into something. It's the best drawing hand (if suited), but it's still a drawing hand. Shouldn't be 4-bet PF, shouldn't be taken AIPF (generally, in cash games). It's strong, but you still need to make something of it.

if that is a case than AK isnt best drawing hand,but instead QK is

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[United]

As a friend of mine once quoted, "You win with AK and you lose with AK"

I personally find it one of those high potential hands that, like most hands, depends on a good flop.

 

[IPlay]

Lol @ People who say that AK is not a drawing hand.

It is a drawing hand, for it is nothing more than ace-high until you've drawn into something. It's the best drawing hand (if suited), but it's still a drawing hand. Shouldn't be 4-bet PF, shouldn't be taken AIPF (generally, in cash games). It's strong, but you still need to make something of it.

I think 4 betting pre is fine is fine with AK. You have blockers for AA and KK and usually hold quite a bit of fold equity. Especially when OOP, I'd rather 4 bet than flat a 3 bet any day.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I think 4 betting pre is fine is fine with AK. You have blockers for AA and KK and usually hold quite a bit of fold equity. Especially when OOP, I'd rather 4 bet than flat a 3 bet any day.

4-betting can be, but you're gonna end up all-in and in the micros, you're just not going to be facing anything other than AA or KK if they call your 4-bet. Just speaking in general; and definitely yes, OOP, it may be better to 4b than call, but again, it's mostly read/stat dependent because most of the time (at any mid-stakes level or lower) you're just not going to be getting 3-bet with anything shy of AA, KK, or AK, much less get into 4-bet+ PF confrontations with anything else.

I think I posted in my thread a hand in which I was a third wheel with AKo and I folded to find the players to have some garbage like 78 and K4, I believe. I was stunned when they flipped them over, would've been ahead through the turn, but would've lost to trip 7s spiked on the river. There's just always going to be a better spot for the hand.

PokerListings has a trilogy regarding the hand. It starts here: AK: The Best Drawing Hand

In the second part of the trilogy, this is stated:

Ironically, poker is a very thoughtful game that is played solely on instinct by the majority of players. Whether you know it or not, you raise for one, two or all three of the following reasons:

1. To isolate the hand against one or a few opponent/s.
2. To increase pot size while having the most equity.
3. To gain information on the other players in the pot.

When raising with A-K, you are primarily doing it for the third reason, whereas when raising with a hand such as AA, you are doing it for the second. A-K is strong enough to stand, in the long run, against a field of multiple players.
Increasing the pot size isn't a bad idea, but A-K is a drawing hand, meaning you still need to connect with the board to hold on to the equity post flop.
You're raising A-K for information. If you understand why you're raising before you do, instead of arbitrarily raising because you feel you should with the hand, you will have the knowledge and the ability to execute a plan.
When you know you're raising primarily for information, you can time and size your raise amounts accordingly.

Edit P.S.: I did post that hand and it's the last hand I posted, titled as "The Ugly" in my own "Good, Bad, and Ugly" from yesterday. Just click the link in my siggy-sig to check it out along with some other stuff you can totally rip on me for. Haha

 

[Thinker_145]

4-betting can be, but you're gonna end up all-in and in the micros, you're just not going to be facing anything other than AA or KK if they call your 4-bet.

I have no idea what micros you are playing mate. Maybe you are playing speed/zoom poker.

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[BenjiHustle]

I have no idea what micros you are playing mate. Maybe you are playing speed/zoom poker.

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I can't even play zoom/rush/speed etc. No access. I will say though, I deleted the 4b+ stats from all of my hud groups because they were almost always 0 and it was taking up space for nothing. The 3-bet stats that I face are generally either 0-3 or 15+. Everything I've faced has been very polarized and there would be no reason for me to get into a hand that goes 4b+ without KK+, ever really.

Anyway, the point is getting lost. AK is a drawing hand; there's honestly no debating that. It's got extraordinary playability post-flop, though. That's what makes it a winning hand. In reality, what makes it a winning hand is how and where you're playing it in which ways. If I'm 4-betting against players that only go 3b+ with KK+, then I'm probably not going to be a winning player with AK.

 

[spookah123]

AK is definitely a winning hand and fairly easy to play too. AQ on the other hand...

 

[Tgen]

ofc it should be a winning hand , you should never call a standar raise with it , its almost always best to 3-bet or fold , against 3-bets you should call or mini4-bet , never call all ins preflop with it.

 

[matiusaa]

AK is played differently when you have 40bb compared to 100bb. Most players who play 100bb don't really know how to play it

 

[Ubercroz]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

How are we still talking about AK, and why are people still saying its a drawing hand?

I don't even know where to start. look at a hands equity not just if its paired. Did you know that AK could beat QQ even if it doesn't hit? Did you know that a lot of the time even when your "drawing hand" doesn't hit, it's still the best hand on the flop? Did you know that you should be winning a lot with AK because its ahead of a ton of hands?

I don't know what to say, other than there is so much bad information in this thread it numbs the mind.

 

[magicius]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

How are we still talking about AK, and why are people still saying its a drawing hand?

I don't even know where to start. look at a hands equity not just if its paired. Did you know that AK could beat QQ even if it doesn't hit? Did you know that a lot of the time even when your "drawing hand" doesn't hit, it's still the best hand on the flop? Did you know that you should be winning a lot with AK because its ahead of a ton of hands?

I don't know what to say, other than there is so much bad information in this thread it numbs the mind.

ok so if you dont hit with AK,how do you beat QQ? i have mediocre results with AK,i play mostly zoom,and when i am in aipf situation most of time i am against AA,KK... now i try to play AK postflop,and its going better... i must check hm2 about winnings with AK but for sure it is positive...

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[spookah123]

ok so if you dont hit with AK,how do you beat QQ? i have mediocre results with AK,i play mostly zoom,and when i am in aipf situation most of time i am against AA,KK... now i try to play AK postflop,and its going better... i must check hm2 about winnings with AK but for sure it is positive...

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Well obviously you can't beat QQ if you don't hit an A or a K, but you still have around 50% equity by the river, a bit more if suited. You have any other non-paired hand dominated, especially higher aces (AQ-A9) and higher kings (KQ,KJ) which you can get a bunch of value from at the low stakes if you do manage hit an ace or a king, and if you don't it's easy to get out of too.

 

[BenjiHustle]

How are we still talking about AK, and why are people still saying its a drawing hand?

I don't even know where to start. look at a hands equity not just if its paired. Did you know that AK could beat QQ even if it doesn't hit?

I don't know what to say, other than there is so much bad information in this thread it numbs the mind.

 

[thatgreekdude]

why are AJ + AQ showing me a profit and AK isn't, sample size issue??

 

[BenjiHustle]

why are AJ + AQ showing me a profit and AK isn't, sample size issue??

Probably sample size along with the fact that you're probably more careful with AJ, AQ than you are with AK.

Ever heard a player say something along the lines of "AA (never wins/always loses) for me!" or something along those lines? They say that for the same reason the OP made this post; because they're winning small pots and losing big ones by marrying their hand based on PF value.

 

[RodneyC86]

Now calm down people, I think Ubercroz is just seeing it from a different light.

I can respect microstakes people feeling shaky with AK when the pot starts bloating preflop though, cause essentially it's one of two things -
1) The pot bloater is a reg, in which case your AK is toast
2) Opponent is a fish who 3bets because it's cool

Trouble comes cause we don't always get solid reads right off the bat since we need at least 100 hands to be sure, even then, 3bet stats can be very very batty. I've seen some 3 percent 3betters pop up with a surprise Arag or Krag suited.

One thing is always true at the micros though is how bad they are postflop, I can say that 99% of microstakers postflop like **** (possibly yours truly as well but I'm already too lazy to discuss it now, too busy 24-tabling 5NL).

So my take on this AK issue on the micros is....when in doubt of your opponent's tightness/looseness, take it postflop cheap to prevent losing big fat pots and then proceed to tilt yourself and scream bloody murder at your beloved AK on cardschat. Afterall AK is just A high 65% of the time .... you need to have better standards than that postflop so folding AK postflop should be easy! Stop spewing off with AK.

 

[Ubercroz]

ok so if you dont hit with AK,how do you beat QQ? i have mediocre results with AK,i play mostly zoom,and when i am in aipf situation most of time i am against AA,KK... now i try to play AK postflop,and its going better... i must check hm2 about winnings with AK but for sure it is positive...

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If the board is 222 2 T then AK beats a QQ. top kicker.

If you are playing against rocks who never call an all in pre flop unless they have AA or KK then you should be coming over the top of them with nothing, they should be folding all the time, so you get to take all their dead money.

If you aren't winning with AK you are either playing badly or you are running badly. or both, I guess.

AK should be a hugely winning hand, against most opponents it should also be fine to get it in preflop.

 

[Ubercroz]

Alright, lets talk about preflop for a minute.

You are in early position and you are dealt AKo. You raise it to 4bb, because your cool.

3 folds, HJ 3bets you to 14bb. This guy is a tight reg, like 21/19 kinda guy. Well, his 3bet range should be bigger than just AK, QQ+. It may have AQ in there, it may have TT+ as well. So against that range, it would be totally correct to 4bet this guy. 1: he may fold some of his hands that are technically ahead of you (TT, JJ) and some that you split equity with (AK). Yeah, he may jam on you with AA, KK, QQ, and AK though.

Well if his jamming range is QQ+ and AK then you would be correct to call that shove. Because you have ~50% equity. You say, "But that's a coin flip ubercroz! I don't want to do that!" I say, "Suck it up and play like a man (or a lady)!"

There is enough money in the pot right now that IF you have a 50% chance to win you are profitable. That's the thing with the AK, that once a lot of money is in the pot, even at a coin flip you will come out +EV in the long run. As long as you don't have to call an amount that is exactly equal to the pot to win, you come out ahead!

If you are telling me that he will never 3bet without AA or KK, then I guess fold your AK every time you get 3bet - but that's not how people play, even at the micros. If you can tell me that they 3bet with more than AA and KK but will only shove with AA and KK then you should be 4betting with more than just AK, it should be a huge portion of your range, because they will be folding the best hand all the time to you. If they shove with more than just AA and KK then you are fine to 4bet and call their shove.

It should be pretty straight forward. AK is a winning hand because it has equity, its not a "drawing hand" because it straight up beats most hands in the deck.

My frustration is because I have seen over and over in this thread people explaining how to fold AK, and that they lose money with AK, and that its a drawing hand. You are either an old man saying that, or you are bad at poker. Either one is fine, but you can do better than that. Poker is not just about the cards, its how you react to your opponents and how you manage them with the hands you are dealt.

If you cannot profitably play with AK, then you are bad at adjusting to your opponents. If you cannot adjust to your opponents, then you are going to lose at poker. It's not that I think AK is the most amazing thing in the world, its just another hand. I get no more excited about it than I do upset when I get a 72 or a KT. It is only a couple of cards, however those cards should be profitable and you need to figure some shit out if they are not.

 

[magicius]

If the board is 222 2 T then AK beats a QQ. top kicker.

If you are playing against rocks who never call an all in pre flop unless they have AA or KK then you should be coming over the top of them with nothing, they should be folding all the time, so you get to take all their dead money.

If you aren't winning with AK you are either playing badly or you are running badly. or both, I guess.

AK should be a hugely winning hand, against most opponents it should also be fine to get it in preflop.

yeah that board hits almost.... never.
anyway i didnt say i am losing with AK....
i am winning with it,but thats cause i changed way i play with it.... yes i 3bet with it,but anything past that is a fold...
before i would go aifp with it every time,now i may do it some times....
my shove range is KK/AA if i am aggro...if i am calling aipf i could widen it up based on opponent....
as for AK,when i 3bet with it,i cbet and keep shooting,if they strike back i fold.... benjis post said about everything,most of micro players play AK like AA and when they lose vs PP they qq for some time

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[pcgnome]

You can always bet the hand in position even if you miss the flop.
OOP you can easily fold if you miss the flop, and you should fold most of the time, or you can find yourself in some trouble if you miss the turn as well.
It is the best non-pair drawing hand there is out there. You should be winning money with it, or you are playing it wrong.
It's a great hand to have in certain certain situations where you have an opportunity to shove when you are down to something like 5-10 BBs, or when you are deep in a tourney with high BBs and it's either shove or fold.
Of course, position and opp. stack sizes should always be a consideration.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Weird ways to win with AK:

Merge - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 15.75 BB (VPIP: 59.18, PFR: 12.24, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
MP: 127.75 BB (VPIP: 29.82, PFR: 8.77, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 58)
CO: 136 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 14.81, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 55)
Hero (BTN): 143.5 BB
SB: 49 BB (VPIP: 8.33, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 12)
BB: 80.75 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 14.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 34)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:spade: K:spade:

UTG calls 1 BB, MP raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero raises to 6 BB, fold, BB calls 5 BB, fold, MP calls 4 BB

Flop: (19.5 BB, 3 players) 8:heart: 9:spade: 9:diamond:
BB bets 4 BB, fold, Hero calls 4 BB

Turn: (27.5 BB, 2 players) J:heart:
BB bets 6 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

River: (39.5 BB, 2 players) 3:club:
BB checks, Hero checks

BB shows A:diamond: 7:diamond: (One Pair, Nines) (Pre 29%, Flop 26%, Turn 23%)
Hero shows A:spade: K:spade: (One Pair, Nines) (Pre 71%, Flop 74%, Turn 77%)
Hero wins 37.5 BB

arty:

Merge - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 98.75 BB (VPIP: 43.75, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
Hero (UTG): 141.25 BB
CO: 115.75 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
BTN: 99.75 BB (VPIP: 42.75, PFR: 12.68, 3Bet Preflop: 2.13, Hands: 287)
SB: 199.75 BB (VPIP: 28.24, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 4.73, Hands: 438)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:club: A:diamond:

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, SB raises to 8.25 BB, fold, Hero calls 5.25 BB

Flop: (17.5 BB, 2 players) J:spade: 6:heart: T:heart:
SB bets 17.5 BB, Hero calls 17.5 BB

Turn: (52.5 BB, 2 players) 2:club:
SB bets 39.25 BB, Hero calls 39.25 BB

River: (131 BB, 2 players) A:club:
SB bets 65.5 BB, Hero calls 65.5 BB

SB shows K:diamond: K:heart: (One Pair, Kings) (Pre 70%, Flop 74%, Turn 84%)
Hero shows K:club: A:diamond: (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 30%, Flop 26%, Turn 16%)
Hero wins 247.5 BB

arty: