Study Group: Polished Poker Vol. II Workbook

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fishinthesea

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The difficulty of goals plays a big role in the determination of the satisfaction of the achieved goal. For example, an easy goal like: make $20 in one session playing 25nl is more easily achievable than conquering 25nl with a consistent win rate. Both are achievable goals (one being short term and the other long term), but conquering 25nl with a consistent win rate would definitely be more challenging. Conquering 25nl would take time learning, and with learning comes mistakes/trial and error, and other blocker's I guess. Something that takes so much time and effort would definitely make it more personal for me. I could be completely wrong on the analysis haha.
 
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rhombus

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What did you find that was difficult? We can break it down if you have some questions. Hopefully the ideas came across ok, or it was just difficult to understand in general?
was difficult to understand in general
 
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rhombus

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I'm on a new diet at the moment. It's the less cake more exercise it ain't ffing rocket science diet.

Eat Low 1/2 Fat Cake then you can eat twice as much :D

Also diet is a word misinterpreted so much. Eating Shit and Drinking Beer an be classed as a diet. Needs the word Balanced or Healthy before it.

But the "" less cake more exercise"" is the way to go instead of these faddy expensive diets that come out every 5 mins.
 
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I'm not in a good mood let me apologise for my seemingly negative attitude to this subject
 
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Back on to poker!!

I agree with Figaroos comments

In my experience people don't achieve their goals primarily because nearly all humans are lazy and most resist change until they see the benefits. (Full stop end of and I firmly count myself in there with the majority)
When they don't get what they want after the first few tries they then get greedy and want shortcuts. (Some steal, most just give up)
The ones who achieve are the ones who do so with a plan and a schedule and sometimes some good luck. You need the first two, if you don't schedule then laziness takes over and things get put off.

I'm lazy and if possible try to find shortcuts if it will achieve the same result at a fraction of the time, although sometimes if the shortcut doesnt work it'll take longer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tortoise_and_the_Harehttp:// or you just give up.

John you said I went on week long+ meditation retreats, studied with many famous yogi's, Buddhist monks, and gurus to try and "make sense of it all". A path many others have been down when you're trying to discover yourself.

Sounds really interesting and all the other spiritual meditation stuff but maybe thats the reason you understand alot more about this kind of stuff, as for the guys who are trying to beat the micros and move up the poker food chain its just never gonna happen.

You maybe dont have all the blocks we have because of the meditation and regimental mentality you have so its not an easy thing to suddenly change a lifestyle.

We all probably have diferent ways of learning and some better than others, for me I dont even know myself.

AS for the question

It's a strange path to go from there to poker, but that's a whole other story. What I'd invite you to do if you're so inclined is pay attention to when you experience obstacles to your goals as descried on page 11. These are your clues to knowing that there's a problem that you need to investigate. I like to look at it as the mind providing you the information you need for you own spiritual growth. It will help you in poker goals, and any other life goal you have. Like I say in the book, the more personally meaningful the goal is, the more blocks you'll encounter.

100 points to anyone who can fashion a guess on why that is...

probably becausee we are afraid to discover our true inner self
 
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rhombus

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I'm not in a good mood let me apologise for my seemingly negative attitude to this subject

No need to apologise its better to relaese the feelings than bottle them up. I know I bottle them up then spew chips all over the table.

I aint in a great mood either i'm running like crap, got the Play through bonus at Stars to release a $47.50 bonus. I aint got there yet and it already cost me nearly $250 :eek:
 

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Like I say in the book, the more personally meaningful the goal is, the more blocks you'll encounter 100 points to anyone who can fashion a guess on why that is... [/QUOTE]

Well the more personal you make your goals the more ugly truths about yourself you need to reopen and confront and no one likes to do that without very good reason.

I've been down the Buddhist path to enlightenment its so....... you know I'll keep my mouth shut . I do follow the DLama on twitter though each of his offering are golden nuggets

Sorry to see you struggling Rhom. Your holdem stats always looked really solid and technically better than mine. Im not a fan of fast poker it takes too long to build up decent reads and favours strongly aggressive play which doesn't sit well with my passive analytical nature.
 
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Well the more personal you make your goals the more ugly truths about yourself you need to reopen and confront and no one likes to do that without very good reason.

Very interesting thought.

What I really think in my heart right now: I play poker to make enough money so I don't have to play poker anymore.

And if I tell you why I want that, I'll probably get a warning that this is a poker thread and they want to keep it that way.

So I'll leave it at that.
 
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rhombus

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Sorry to see you struggling Rhom. Your holdem stats always looked really solid and technically better than mine. Im not a fan of fast poker it takes too long to build up decent reads and favours strongly aggressive play which doesn't sit well with my passive analytical nature.
Guess chasing bonuses by playing Fast Poker isnt the way to go especially at PLO, Stats are similar but results are opposite LOL. Guess I'll stick to micro NLHE and learn or when I play Fast PLO start at 1c/2c again as it can be such a brutal game

As for the reading of players ideally another one of my goals would be to play NLHE and beat the game with and without a HUD, I dont use my HUD in the best way which is one of my weaknesses and I'm wondering how it would affect alot of players if they suddenly decided to stop the use of HUDs whilst playing.
 

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Clearly if you can master speed poker you can win at enhanced rates. When it first started I would play it and run up 5-6 buyins fairly quickly and when you get a stack most see you as decent and respect your raises more.
As people have got to grips with it I find it much tougher. If you can get through the first 20k of hands to profile the regs it should become easier. The arguments for and against HUDS are well documented. I find them invaluable but I have been playing hudless on the Full Flush site and it doesn't take long to spot the fish and profile the players if you watch every hand and make notes.
You might be better playing live if you can't be doing with a hud.
 
John A

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Blocks are usually just hurdles that people won't climb over as there isn't a necessity. Most underachievers are comfortable where they are. They exist in a world of "not quite uncomfortable enough" to force themselves to change. Humans are creatures of habit and stick to what works for them that is where resistance to change originates.
Leopards don't change their spots is an adage that comes to mind.
Necessity is the mother of change and invention. Only people with drive vision and some grit get to the top.
I have plenty of energy it's not about that for me. Poker is no different from any other game really. You have to learn the techniques practice practice review practice.Repeat as required.
I'm on a new diet at the moment. It's the less cake more exercise it ain't ffing rocket science diet.

The reason this is in the book to begin with is because there's no real good material out there on why the hell you're not really achieving what you could be achieving imho. Now, you guys all set a goal for yourself in learning and becoming good at poker. Why do so many people you know plateau, or end up quitting? Is it because they're dumb? Lazy maybe as suggested?

We're not looking to achieve spiritual enlightenment here. It's over rated any ways imho. lol I'd consider myself a pragmatic person in a lot of ways, and I'm not religious, buddhist or anything other wise. What I am is someone who, when they get stuck on something, figures out a solution. You don't think I had blocks as I was moving up the poker food chain? I could have easily stopped or plateaued. It's definitely the easy solution. It's actually the current fate of mankind. They hit a block trying to reach a goal, and then they give up or lessen their goal until they've watered it down so much it doesn't present any serious challenge to their beliefs. In the end they end up manifesting what they've come to unconsciously believe about themselves, which is pretty much total bullshit.

Our goal here, right now, is just to bring more attention to the fact that if you are not achieving goals for yourself, like study X amount of hours per month, then you're aware of it and you have a couple of tools to push through and make sure you keep on track with your goals.

The reason people get blocks while they're trying to reach their goals is because we know there's something important about ourselves that is at risk IF we reach those goals. And like we said, the more personally meaningful that goal is, the more blocks you're going to encounter in reaching it.

Learning poker as a goal will have different significance for a lot of you. For some, you just want to get better and have some fun. For some it's a possibility of having more financial freedom and more time with your kids / family. So for some of you, you're going to have more blocks than others might.

Now, what is that "something" that is at risk if you achieve your goal? It's the very image and belief system that you have created about yourself. Pretty much all of this goes back to your youth, and to messages and stories that your parents and other people who loved you would subtly tell you about yourself and what the world is. We accept and take that all in, mostly very unconsciously as feeling states when we're very young. And the reason that blocks come in is because when we set something up a goal for ourselves, and if we achieve that goal, then all of those messages challenge all of those early message about who we are and what the world is about. We're challenging the core messages from the people who loved and took care of us. Reaching those goals will change you to some degree (depending on the significance of the goal again), and thus will challenge and potentially change those relationships as well.

The kicker in all of this is that people aren't aware of these message or when these blocks come in because when you accepted them in your youth, you never put those beliefs you accepted fully into words. They've been a part of you that remains as an emotional state, and can be triggered through similar present scenes you have. When a similar state is triggered, you unknowingly react and play out these scenes which usually turn into cyclical patterns that you repeat without knowing why your whole life. A simple example is how or what you get mad at... ever stop at some point and go, geez, I'm acting like Dad, or mom or.... ? You may recognize it at some point, but you still don't know why it's happening. In order to move through one of these blocks, you must recognize the state, and put WORDS on it so you can then understand it. When you understand it, it ceases being an unconscious emotional state that controls you.

Now WTF does this have to do with poker? I'd say pretty much every student I've taught, I could see, hear and watch as they went through one of these states, or continued to do the same mistakes over and over in their game and couldn't figure out why. I finally decided to write about this, even though I know there will be a decent amount of resistance to talk about things in this manner, because I had one student in particular for about 2 years that really wanted to move up stakes. We moved up a couple of stake levels and he had all the skills to keep going but he kept getting himself into the same spots that would end up ruining his session. It was really hard to watch over and over for that length of time, and I knew there was only one way to resolve it. And let me tell you, this person, and they may end up in this study group at some point, really wanted this goal. They were extremely big hearted, kind, and deserved to move through this, but no matter how much I explained the problem and how to correct it through simple poker theory, it never changed.

And thus... here we are. So it's up to you. Maybe this isn't necessary for you, maybe you have other ways to figure these things out, or maybe you just never have any blocks in your life. If that's the case, just skip this part and we'll be on to the next chapter soon.

For those that do, here's the simple goal:

If you find yourself in game making the SAME mistake over and over. Stop. Get a pen and paper, and write down about 2 - 4 words that describe your current mental state when you're in that position of making that mistake.

When you're done with that session. Take those words and think about that state as best you an again. How did it make you feel? Then, ask yourself when can you remember first feeling that way. Write down anything you can about that first time. The whole scene. Who was there, what was being said, where were you. Just write out anything you can. Believe it or not, it's all there, but it will take a little bit of time. It's a powerful state and it's effected you your whole life, so it will eventually all come out.

The goal is to just think about that state, and try and see what kind of conclusion you made. Now that you're seeing this with adult eyes, create a new conclusion about the scene and put it into words. It's that simple and that complex all at the same time.

IF you can do this, this block will cease to exist for you. Some blocks may have other connected scenes. The depth of the blocks plays a roll, but for the most part you will stop being UNCONSCIOUSLY controlled by that state any more. At the very least, you will be completely aware when it potentially comes up again for you.

So that's it. You can ask yourself the same kinds of questions on specific goals that you may have procrastinated on as well.

And like I said, if this isn't for you, no big deal. We'll be on to a new chapter soon, and back to poker. lol
 
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fishinthesea

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My brain just got raped by enlightenment.. haha.

On a serious note though, John, you provide a perspective I would never even come close to thinking about.
 
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rhombus

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My brain just got raped by enlightenment.. haha.
+1 but I'd describe it in slighty different words :eek:

PS whats the answer to below: or was it hidden somewhere in the post above
the more personally meaningful the goal is, the more blocks you'll encounter.

100 points to anyone who can fashion a guess on why that is.
 
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ph0n3_j4ck

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My brain just got raped by enlightenment.. haha.

Dittooo broo, but
Man... John...

I've definitely been hitting the same blocks in my poker goals for a while and have been shying away from looking at them seriously (I'm sure I've been shying away from blocks in real life too, but lets leave that for another day). I would just stop playing poker after hitting one of these "blocks" and start poker up again just to hit the same block... It's a vicious cycle...

Definitely gonna give what you have written some thought.
 
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rhombus

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Been reading a few chapters in Volume 1 and noticed a couple of possible errors and wondering if I have the latest version or has it been updated.

Version I have is
Poker by the Book: Polished Poker – Volume I v1.2

Page 25
If you have AdTc on a flop of AsQdTh, you'll know that there are only 5 combinations of sets, 16 combinations of a flopped straight, and 9 combinations of a higher two pair that beat you for a total of 30 combinations. There are only 9 combinations of worse two pairs that you beat, and 4 that you split with.
shouldnt it be

6 higher two pair total 27
6 lower pair combinations


Page 74
Let's contrast this with a hand like JJ that you'd typically 3-bet for value in most spots. Sometimes you might look to flat. The exact opposite becomes true with a hand like JJ. You crush your opponent’s equity pre-flop versus the exact same range as above, but your pre-flop equity decreases versus their calling range, and doesn't increase like in the AQo example.

On the pictures AQ loses equity against a calling range as well
 
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rhombus

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Page 89 4Betting
Not sure if error maybe I dont understand as I'm not sure where the +6.3 BB come from

3. If your opponent is opening 10% of his range, and jamming only 3%, then they'll be folding roughly 70% of the time to a 4-bet.
14.5(.70) - 23(.3) = + 3.3 BBs
4. 4-bet bluffing in this situation has a net profit of +6.3 BBs, since if you fold you're losing 3 BBs 100% of the time.
 
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The reason this is in the book to begin with is because there's no real good material out there on why the hell you're not really achieving what you could be achieving imho. Now, you guys all set a goal for yourself in learning and becoming good at poker. Why do so many people you know plateau, or end up quitting? Is it because they're dumb? Lazy maybe as suggested?

We're not looking to achieve spiritual enlightenment here. It's over rated any ways imho. lol I'd consider myself a pragmatic person in a lot of ways, and I'm not religious, buddhist or anything other wise. What I am is someone who, when they get stuck on something, figures out a solution. You don't think I had blocks as I was moving up the poker food chain? I could have easily stopped or plateaued. It's definitely the easy solution. It's actually the current fate of mankind. They hit a block trying to reach a goal, and then they give up or lessen their goal until they've watered it down so much it doesn't present any serious challenge to their beliefs. In the end they end up manifesting what they've come to unconsciously believe about themselves, which is pretty much total bullshit.

Our goal here, right now, is just to bring more attention to the fact that if you are not achieving goals for yourself, like study X amount of hours per month, then you're aware of it and you have a couple of tools to push through and make sure you keep on track with your goals.

The reason people get blocks while they're trying to reach their goals is because we know there's something important about ourselves that is at risk IF we reach those goals. And like we said, the more personally meaningful that goal is, the more blocks you're going to encounter in reaching it.

Learning poker as a goal will have different significance for a lot of you. For some, you just want to get better and have some fun. For some it's a possibility of having more financial freedom and more time with your kids / family. So for some of you, you're going to have more blocks than others might.

Now, what is that "something" that is at risk if you achieve your goal? It's the very image and belief system that you have created about yourself. Pretty much all of this goes back to your youth, and to messages and stories that your parents and other people who loved you would subtly tell you about yourself and what the world is. We accept and take that all in, mostly very unconsciously as feeling states when we're very young. And the reason that blocks come in is because when we set something up a goal for ourselves, and if we achieve that goal, then all of those messages challenge all of those early message about who we are and what the world is about. We're challenging the core messages from the people who loved and took care of us. Reaching those goals will change you to some degree (depending on the significance of the goal again), and thus will challenge and potentially change those relationships as well.

The kicker in all of this is that people aren't aware of these message or when these blocks come in because when you accepted them in your youth, you never put those beliefs you accepted fully into words. They've been a part of you that remains as an emotional state, and can be triggered through similar present scenes you have. When a similar state is triggered, you unknowingly react and play out these scenes which usually turn into cyclical patterns that you repeat without knowing why your whole life. A simple example is how or what you get mad at... ever stop at some point and go, geez, I'm acting like Dad, or mom or.... ? You may recognize it at some point, but you still don't know why it's happening. In order to move through one of these blocks, you must recognize the state, and put WORDS on it so you can then understand it. When you understand it, it ceases being an unconscious emotional state that controls you.

Now WTF does this have to do with poker? I'd say pretty much every student I've taught, I could see, hear and watch as they went through one of these states, or continued to do the same mistakes over and over in their game and couldn't figure out why. I finally decided to write about this, even though I know there will be a decent amount of resistance to talk about things in this manner, because I had one student in particular for about 2 years that really wanted to move up stakes. We moved up a couple of stake levels and he had all the skills to keep going but he kept getting himself into the same spots that would end up ruining his session. It was really hard to watch over and over for that length of time, and I knew there was only one way to resolve it. And let me tell you, this person, and they may end up in this study group at some point, really wanted this goal. They were extremely big hearted, kind, and deserved to move through this, but no matter how much I explained the problem and how to correct it through simple poker theory, it never changed.

And thus... here we are. So it's up to you. Maybe this isn't necessary for you, maybe you have other ways to figure these things out, or maybe you just never have any blocks in your life. If that's the case, just skip this part and we'll be on to the next chapter soon.

For those that do, here's the simple goal:

If you find yourself in game making the SAME mistake over and over. Stop. Get a pen and paper, and write down about 2 - 4 words that describe your current mental state when you're in that position of making that mistake.

When you're done with that session. Take those words and think about that state as best you an again. How did it make you feel? Then, ask yourself when can you remember first feeling that way. Write down anything you can about that first time. The whole scene. Who was there, what was being said, where were you. Just write out anything you can. Believe it or not, it's all there, but it will take a little bit of time. It's a powerful state and it's effected you your whole life, so it will eventually all come out.

The goal is to just think about that state, and try and see what kind of conclusion you made. Now that you're seeing this with adult eyes, create a new conclusion about the scene and put it into words. It's that simple and that complex all at the same time.

IF you can do this, this block will cease to exist for you. Some blocks may have other connected scenes. The depth of the blocks plays a roll, but for the most part you will stop being UNCONSCIOUSLY controlled by that state any more. At the very least, you will be completely aware when it potentially comes up again for you.

So that's it. You can ask yourself the same kinds of questions on specific goals that you may have procrastinated on as well.

And like I said, if this isn't for you, no big deal. We'll be on to a new chapter soon, and back to poker. lol

I've always found psychology and self reflection an extremly interesting topic. And I feel that it plays quite a big role in stoping my progress, since I've never had much problems with understanding the theory, while trying to put it into practice and deviate from my (mostly defensive) style always has been a struggle.

Off topic:
Guys sorry I haven't been able to participate as much lately, but I am just in the middle of moving to the netherlands as an exchange student. I feel like I've achieved a decent goal, as I've always thought that moving to a diffent country without knowing anyone there is something I would struggle with. I hope I will be able to transfer that mentality to poker as well. :)
 
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Dittooo broo, but
Man... John...

I've definitely been hitting the same blocks in my poker goals for a while and have been shying away from looking at them seriously (I'm sure I've been shying away from blocks in real life too, but lets leave that for another day). I would just stop playing poker after hitting one of these "blocks" and start poker up again just to hit the same block... It's a vicious cycle...

Definitely gonna give what you have written some thought.

Exactly same here. It sucks.
 
John A

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My brain just got raped by enlightenment.. haha.

On a serious note though, John, you provide a perspective I would never even come close to thinking about.

I never thought I'd be accused of rape... I better watch what I say! :)

We need to take different approaches and look at things from new angles if our current attempts aren't yielding the results we want. You know what they say about insanity.

Be a good friend to yourself, and just think of a way to approach any block or obstacle you have from as many different perspectives as you can until you find a method that works for you. But don't sit back and silently diminish your potential. It's easy to do, and I'd like to see you guys succeed at whatever you're taking on life, whether it be poker, business, parenthood, etc...

And if you have any other approaches to understanding blocks and moving through them, please share!
 
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Page 89 4Betting
Not sure if error maybe I dont understand as I'm not sure where the +6.3 BB come from

3. If your opponent is opening 10% of his range, and jamming only 3%, then they'll be folding roughly 70% of the time to a 4-bet.
14.5(.70) - 23(.3) = + 3.3 BBs
4. 4-bet bluffing in this situation has a net profit of +6.3 BBs, since if you fold you're losing 3 BBs 100% of the time.

Can you move those to the Vol. I thread though rhombus? TY!
 
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I've always found psychology and self reflection an extremly interesting topic. And I feel that it plays quite a big role in stoping my progress, since I've never had much problems with understanding the theory, while trying to put it into practice and deviate from my (mostly defensive) style always has been a struggle.

Off topic:
Guys sorry I haven't been able to participate as much lately, but I am just in the middle of moving to the Netherlands as an exchange student. I feel like I've achieved a decent goal, as I've always thought that moving to a diffent country without knowing anyone there is something I would struggle with. I hope I will be able to transfer that mentality to poker as well. :)

Yeah, the internal defense to change is a whole other topic, but also an important one. We're amazingly intelligent beings (well, some of us... lol). We're aware on some many levels, and the fact that our own minds can present information for us that are huge clues to our own growth, says some pretty amazing things about the mind... whatever the mind is. :)
 
Figaroo2

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Who knows how high we can fly with some guidance.

*The chicken eagle.*
There was a chicken farmer who was a very keen rock climber. One day, climbing a particularly challenging rock face, he came upon a a large nest and in the nest were three large eggs. Eagle eggs.
He knew it was distinctly unethical, and even undoubtedly illegal, but temptation got the better of him and he discreetly put one of the eagle eggs in his rucksack, checking first that the mother eagle wasn’t around. Then he continued his climb, drove home, and put the eagle egg in the hen house.
That night the mother hen sat on the huge egg, the proudest chicken you ever saw.
In the fullness of time the egg hatched and the baby eagling emerged. It looked around and saw the mother hen. “Mama!” it squawked.
And so it was that the eagle grew up with its brother and sister chicks. It learned to do all the things that chickens do: clucking and cackling, scratching in the dirt for grits and worms, flapping its wings furiously, and flying a few feet into the air before crashing to the earth in a pile of dust and feathers. And believing above all things that it was totally and absolutely a chicken.
One day late in its life, the eagle-who-thought-he-was-a-chicken happened to look up at the sky. High overhead, soaring majestically on the thermal currents, flying effortlessly with scarcely a beat of its powerful wings, was an eagle.
“What’s that?” said the eagle in awe to his farmyard neighbour. “It’s magnificent. So much power and grace. Poetry in motion.”
“That’s an eagle,” said the chicken. “That’s the King of Birds. It’s a bird of the air. But we, we’re only chickens, we’re birds of the earth.”
And so it was that the eagle lived and died a chicken; because that’s all it believed it was.
 
John A

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Hehe... nice and true story. Thanks for sharing.
 
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SO i need to get me some wings and fly :eek:
 
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