**NevergonnabeNitty November ca$h game thread***

[Figaroo2]

i dont think playing a shove or fold game in 4b pots is very wise if that is your standard

What do you suggest then?

 

[duggs]

At the level I play shoving AK on the flop in a 100bb hand against someone who flats a 4 bet on a low board is a losing play. I have several examples of where I've done this and been called down by QQ and JJ.
That's all we are really talking about.
I was agreeing with Marg that if you are shoving your big pairs as well then you also get away with shoving AK.

yep and thats fine, Im just clarifying for vin that this is the opposite of balancing, its maximally exploitive which is what we want. Id also argue that by and large id rather defend the 3bet with AK than 4bet/call if we are unable to garner any fold equity postflop.

 

[vinylspiros]

I cannot fold when i have a pair to a 3bet pre. I always try and hit a set. If there is no A or K on the flop and they JAM like this im putting them on exactly what i hope they have.

This is why Jamming is not as good as betting IMO. If he had just bet smaller im snap folding this.


pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Button ($1.17)
SB ($2)
BB ($2)
UTG ($0.96)
Hero (MP) ($3.24)
CO ($1.41)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3

, 3

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, CO calls $0.06, Button raises to $0.27, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.21, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.63) 8

, 6

, 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.90 (All-In), Hero calls $0.90

Turn: ($2.43) Q

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($2.43) J

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.43 | Rake: $0.08

Results below:

Spoiler

Button didn't show
Hero had 3

, 3

(one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero won $2.35

he had AK

 

[Figaroo2]

Regardless of this particular outcome I've told you before Calling 3bets with small pairs to set mine is a leak unless you are playing really deep stacked.
If you have leakbuster there is a specific report you can run on this if you need the evidence.
I posted mine recently for you it was a losing play with all small pairs.

 

[duggs]

Regardless of this particular outcome I've told you before Calling 3bets with small pairs to set mine is a leak unless you are playing really deep stacked.
If you have leakbuster there is a specific report you can run on this if you need the evidence.
I posted mine recently for you it was a losing play with all small pairs.

beat me to it, and villain is only 50bb deep and made it huge ugh.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I cannot fold when i have a pair to a 3bet pre.

You need to learn how. That hand was terrible. Villain started with a half stack and put in 25% of his stack preflop. You lost money on this hand the second you called the 3bet.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

You need to learn how. That hand was terrible. Villain started with a half stack and put in 25% of his stack preflop. You lost money on this hand the second you called the 3bet.

+1. So -EV it's insane.

 

[vinylspiros]

So guys. At 6max where i usually play cash. Am i supposed to not open PP's?

If i opem then and someone 3bets me, your suggesting i fold?

And if so, what pocket pair is a call? TT and above?


Cause if its minus EV to fold small to medium PP's to 3bets, then playing anything above 10NL would suggest we dont even open PP cause you get 3 bet ALOT from CO or BTN.


What the heck is setmining? FLatting opens with PP's? But if we open and are 3 bet, we just snap fold? Is that what everyones saying?

 

[vinylspiros]

Whats the filter to see how much ive lost to flatting 3bets with small PP's on HM. I wanna take a look and see how much ive lost.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

There is no generic strategy for playing PP's, but set mining doesn't mean flatting any amount pre in hopes of hitting a set. It has to be mathematically correct to do so, and it basically never will be correct to flat a short stack 3bet (OOP especially) to set mine.

 

[Figaroo2]

Come on buddy we open all pairs in every position to make us a threat on every flop.
Sometimes we get 3bet when we have a small pair and especially oop it just makes sense to fold smaller pairs most of the time.
The problem is postflop there are going to be 2-3 overcards on every flop and you will never really know where you stand with them when playing them just for pair value after you miss your set.
If you are getting 3bet a lot that is probably because you are opening a lot.

 

[vinylspiros]

just ran leakbuster on all my 2NL hands. This is what it gave me.

A- sounds good. But 35 leaks doesnt. Gonna look at every single one and see whats up with it.

 

[vinylspiros]

and this graph includes all pocket pairs i open and flat3 bets with.Its working for me.

Imagine if i was folding them pre like you guys suggest. id probably be winning more.




Isnt having all 4 lines above 0 hard to achieve?

 

[duggs]

you have flatted 3bets with pocket pairs 50,000 times?

 

[Figaroo2]

Vin
I'm pretty sure it's one of the filters in STEP 7 of a full analysis. You can see how you are doing with each pair and compare if you play them better by calling or 3betting them from the blinds. I'll be home in a couple of hours...Skype me if you can find it.
Your graph will obviously contain all your big pairs as well which hides how you are doing with the small ones.

 

[vinylspiros]

you have flatted 3bets with pocket pairs 50,000 times?

lol no man. thats the hand sample i analyzed on leakbuster. The reason i posted it was because those hands contain every single time i opened a small to medium pocket pair and then flatted a 3 bet (which is almost every single time). So iwas trying to make a point that its possible to win a limit while calling 3 bets with small to medium pocket pairs.

Look,im a losing cash game player overall. Im here to learn and im definitely going to be not flatting 3 bets anymore with small PP unless were both uber deep.

I know you guys are much better and jokes aside, i take your advice very seriously.

 

[vinylspiros]

Vin
I'm pretty sure it's one of the filters in STEP 7 of a full analysis. You can see how you are doing with each pair and compare if you play them better by calling or 3betting them from the blinds. I'll be home in a couple of hours...Skype me if you can find it.
Your graph will obviously contain all your big pairs as well which hides how you are doing with the small ones.

i hear ya fig. yeah maybe ill catch ya later on skype and we can look at stuff.

thanks for help. you and everyone.

 

[WVHillbilly]

i hear ya fig. yeah maybe ill catch ya later on skype and we can look at stuff.

thanks for help. you and everyone.

You need to be looking for implied odds of almost 20 to 1 to set mine profitably. You can lower that requirement a bit when facing super aggro-donks or when you have a plan to steal a pot on occasion without hitting your set against a villain who will play fit or fold post.

In a typical 3bet pot you're usually getting 10 or 11 to 1 and it's just not enough to make the call with 100bb stacks. At 150bb you can generally start to think about it and at 200+ it should be fairly routine if your villain is the type who will stack worse that deep. This has to be a key consideration because even with 200bb effective if a villain will only ever get his whole stack in when he has your baby set beat you still shouldn't be set mining in 3bet pots against that villain.

 

[vinylspiros]

What is a pretty balanced went to showdown stat?

 

[Figaroo2]

25-27% for full ring, maybe a little higher 6 max

 

[vinylspiros]

25-27% for full ring, maybe a little higher 6 max

i hear ya man. So my 28 for 6max sounds alright. thanks.

 

[acky100]

What do you suggest then?

cbetting small when you choose to cbet is a much better option.

You can still play a 2/3 street game depending on board.

People will still lose their stacks with worse hands.

People will spew jam even worse hands than you expect sometimes.

You can bet AK and other hands small too and threaten their range just as much as shoving, or even get value from hands like AQ KQ that call 4bets OOP.

There is so much good stuff that happens, it also keeps you much more balanced vs intelligent players, you will realise much more equity with your range and get more value overall.

 

[jozsef1990]

figaro!

Results: $66.38 pot ($3 rake)
Final Board: 2♠ A♦ J♣ 6♣ K♥
SB showed T♠ J♠ and lost (-$14.43 net)
Hero showed K♣ A♥ and won $63.38 ($38.03 net)
CO showed Q♥ A♠ and lost (-$25.35 net)
It's rare that you hit your hand normally zoom, for example KKQQ AA to JJ for example if you go all-in and AK Bukovel is already in my corpse so much but when you go so congratulations!

 

[Mase31683]

Who's getting ready for that turkey time? Waiting for my jet right now. Dropped off the earth for awhile, got people working on my houses now, and an offer in on another. Been busy!

 

[Mase31683]

2 girls, both 6's. Alone they wouldn't be anything to brag about, but that elusive 3-some would have made it a cool story.

You just gotta do the math. You sum the girl's hotness scores then multiply by 75%.

Your two 6's would be on par with getting a 9 solo.