**NevergonnabeNitty November ca$h game thread***

[vinylspiros]

Jozsef boosting his posts for freeroll club membership.

Here is a heart warmer.

Party, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $14.43 (57.7 bb)
BB: $8.97 (35.9 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $25.35 (101.4 bb)
MP1: $40.26 (161 bb)
MP2: $23.55 (94.2 bb)
MP3: $35.34 (141.4 bb)
CO: $28.26 (113 bb)
BTN: $30.41 (121.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K♣ A♥
Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, CO raises to $1.25, BTN folds, SB calls $1.15, BB calls $1, Hero raises to $5.25, CO calls $4, SB calls $4, BB folds

Flop: ($17) 2♠ A♦ J♣ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $20.10 and is all-in, CO raises to $23.01 and is all-in, SB calls $9.18 and is all-in

Turn: ($66.38) 6♣ (3 players, 3 are all-in)
River: ($66.38) K♥ (3 players, 3 are all-in)

Results: $66.38 pot ($3 rake)
Final Board: 2♠ A♦ J♣ 6♣ K♥
SB showed T♠ J♠ and lost (-$14.43 net)
Hero showed K♣ A♥ and won $63.38 ($38.03 net)
CO showed Q♥ A♠ and lost (-$25.35 net)

WOW, where do you find these players?

nice hand and pot.

 

[vinylspiros]

And one more Question for you fig or anyone who has a good answer.

cause ive been in this spot way too many times and its not clear what the best action is if we miss flop.

In the spot Fig posted above where we 4bet versus a 3bet and flat behind where they both flat the massive 4 bet.

What do we do if flop comes out 38T rainbow and small blind checks. Do we barrel?

 

[Marginal]

still jam,checking is exploitative unless you check value too

 

[vinylspiros]

still jam,checking is exploitative unless you check value too

does what we are repping here jam this flop (stack to pot ratio-wise) or does it bet like 50%? Although i am probably jamming this spot some of the time, i sometimes just decide ti bet 50% to look like im fully committed and if they go over the top,i might just let it go to save a little spare change. And also to not make it look like im looking for folds. Make it look like we are milking the cow.

Is that very bad?

 

[vinylspiros]

i really feel that Jamming in this spot looks soooooo much like AK looking for folds.

 

[onemorechance]

Let me know if your ever in london bro.

You over here permanently now?

I say to the good cache Omaha but only because it is more likely to be greater than the chance of loss but also give you the moon AK else in my hands is definitely AA KK: DDD especially if russia: D

I could not agree more

 

[Marginal]

i really feel that Jamming in this spot looks soooooo much like AK looking for folds.

If you jam everything here including AA etc, it is fine. It doesnt matter what you do once you do it balanced.

You over here permanently now?

Yea i am here permanently

 

[vinylspiros]

If you jam everything here including AA etc, it is fine. It doesnt matter what you do once you do it balanced.




Yea i am here permanently

got it.

 

[Figaroo2]

i really feel that Jamming in this spot looks soooooo much like AK looking for folds.

Vinyl, I think you are right about this, in a 4 bet pot with AK OOP you are better off just giving up if we miss the flop. Especially against tight unknowns who are going to be flatting 4 bets with QQ JJ and will call you down on low boards.
I sought some advice on this spot from John A
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...er-vol-i-study-group-227214/post-2746397.html
his reply indicates you are usually going to have about 30% equity at best in these spots.

Obviously Marg is right as well, if you have history with the villain and have previously been seen to jam AA KK on a low board then a jam with AK is fine.

 

[vinylspiros]

When we say balanced, do we mean taking the same line with all the preflop action , on all low flops?

What exactly do we mean by balanced?

 

[Marginal]

In short What i mean is you dont make a play with only 1 type of hand.

I dont have a problem if you check the problem becomes if you check fold all missed hands and bet all value hands and nothing else.

 

[vinylspiros]

In short What i mean is you dont make a play with only 1 type of hand.

I dont have a problem if you check the problem becomes if you check fold all missed hands and bet all value hands and nothing else.

thanks alot. good point. noted.

 

[Karozi615]

I was playing 1/2 last night and misread my hand. Thought I had ducks but I actually had 42! Needless to say I noticed on the flop when it came A35 and I did a double take.

Tripled up and everyone was really confused (I was being a total rock)

lolol

 

[Figaroo2]

When we say balanced, do we mean taking the same line with all the preflop action , on all low flops?
What exactly do we mean by balanced?

A simple balance of bluffs and value shoves.

I play TAG this is how 4 bet hands pan out for me....it might be and probably should be different for a player with your looser image Vinyl.

4 bet pot we are OOP with AK
FLOP 26T (pot around 55bb usually)
In all these scenarios his 4 bet calling range TT+ AK becomes a slight equity favourite against AK even before the flop and after we miss the flop our equity drops to around 30%.
This is where John A is suggesting we just check OOP with AK against anyone competent or tight. (I add the caveat unless there is some history)
If we started with 100bb we usually have 73-75bb left, an awkward stack to pot ratio and any decent turn bet will leave us with much less than a pot sized bet behind for the river, and virtually no FE.
Previously I was betting here with AK and just spewing off the cbet and sometimes my whole stack, they don't fold here very often here on the LOW board to say a half pot bet with anything that called a 4 bet at this point.
Would you fold to a 25bb flop cbet with QQ here,, only against the tightest players right?

So there is the option to overshove at this point, obviously we need to take into account villains stickyness ie WTSD% at this point.
If we have AA & KK and he's a weaker player or a calling station then GII. I'm not shoving AK here.
If he has a low WTSD then we can shove with AK & QQ JJ
If hes a reg id make a small turn bet with AA KK to induce or set up a turn shove on suitable boards.
If its unclear trust your instincts, but I err on the side of staying aggressive and shoving. Sometimes they will do something out of the ordinary like flat a 4 bet with JTs and call it off with top pair and backdoors.

When we shove get it in bad with AK JJ v any big pair this will be noted by your opponents and this will allow you to shove AA KK in the same spot and get paid off more often as they call with QQ JJ.
This is the balance.
Also if you shove your AA and KK and get called by QQ JJ then next time you can shove AK as they will have seen you are capable of shoving AA KK in this spot and fold some of their JJ QQ.

In the hand I posted we had two callers and the STR on the flop was almost 1-1 with TPTK on a disconnected board that was always an easy shove.
If I had missed the flop there I would have probably checked against 2 opponents its too spewy to bluff into 2 of them.

 

[vinylspiros]

A simple balance of bluffs and value shoves.

I play TAG this is how 4 bet hands pan out for me....it might be and probably should be different for a player with your looser image Vinyl.

4 bet pot we are OOP with AK
FLOP 26T (pot around 55bb usually)
In all these scenarios his 4 bet calling range TT+ AK becomes a slight equity favourite against AK even before the flop and after we miss the flop our equity drops to around 30%.
This is where John A is suggesting we just check OOP with AK against anyone competent or tight. (I add the caveat unless there is some history)
If we started with 100bb we usually have 73-75bb left, an awkward stack to pot ratio and any decent turn bet will leave us with much less than a pot sized bet behind for the river, and virtually no FE.
Previously I was betting here with AK and just spewing off the cbet and sometimes my whole stack, they don't fold here very often here on the LOW board to say a half pot bet with anything that called a 4 bet at this point.
Would you fold to a 25bb flop cbet with QQ here,, only against the tightest players right?

So there is the option to overshove at this point, obviously we need to take into account villains stickyness ie WTSD% at this point.
If we have AA & KK and he's a weaker player or a calling station then GII. I'm not shoving AK here.
If he has a low WTSD then we can shove with AK & QQ JJ
If hes a reg id make a small turn bet with AA KK to induce or set up a turn shove on suitable boards.
If its unclear trust your instincts, but I err on the side of staying aggressive and shoving. Sometimes they will do something out of the ordinary like flat a 4 bet with JTs and call it off with top pair and backdoors.

When we shove get it in bad with AK JJ v any big pair this will be noted by your opponents and this will allow you to shove AA KK in the same spot and get paid off more often as they call with QQ JJ.
This is the balance.
Also if you shove your AA and KK and get called by QQ JJ then next time you can shove AK as they will have seen you are capable of shoving AA KK in this spot and fold some of their JJ QQ.

In the hand I posted we had two callers and the STR on the flop was almost 1-1 with TPTK on a disconnected board that was always an easy shove.
If I had missed the flop there I would have probably checked against 2 opponents its too spewy to bluff into 2 of them.

Thank you very much for the breakdown. This was really a great read and good examples of balance. Your posts are very valuable bro. Thanks for putting in the time to break it down with these examples. It certainly will help me in similar spots in the future.

 

[duggs]

um only betting KK+ and no bluffs on a 358 board in a 4bet pot is the opposite of balance, it might be a viable exploitative adjustment, but id argue flatting AK v a 3bet is much better than 4b/calling it if thats the case.

 

[acky100]

i dont think playing a shove or fold game in 4b pots is very wise if that is your standard

 

[xdeucesx]

Had an opportunity for a three-way last night but I turned it down due to having a gf. Don't know if its a brag or a beat...I'm thinking beat.

 

[duggs]

2 girls or dudes?

 

[xdeucesx]

2 girls or dudes?

2 girls, both 6's. Alone they wouldn't be anything to brag about, but that elusive 3-some would have made it a cool story.

 

[onemorechance]

2 girls, both 6's. Alone they wouldn't be anything to brag about, but that elusive 3-some would have made it a cool story.

 

[WVHillbilly]

2 girls, both 6's. Alone they wouldn't be anything to brag about, but that elusive 3-some would have made it a cool story.

This reminds me of a buddy who started a threesome story with "I had sex with an 8 last night. Well actually it was 2 fours but...".

 

[Figaroo2]

um only betting KK+ and no bluffs on a 358 board in a 4bet pot is the opposite of balance, it might be a viable exploitative adjustment, but id argue flatting AK v a 3bet is much better than 4b/calling it if thats the case.

We are talking about a very specific scenario of having 4 bet AK getting flat called and what to do if we miss the flop on a low board
Over to you....

 

[duggs]

We are talking about a very specific scenario of having 4 bet AK getting flat called and what to do if we miss the flop on a low board
Over to you....

yes, and only betting KK+ on 735 v a range on TT-QQ AK AQs is the definition of unbalanced. if your argument is people wont fold, thats fine. calling it an example of balance is just misleading and incorrect.

 

[Figaroo2]

yes, and only betting KK+ on 735 v a range on TT-QQ AK AQs is the definition of unbalanced. if your argument is people wont fold, thats fine. calling it an example of balance is just misleading and incorrect.

At the level I play shoving AK on the flop in a 100bb hand against someone who flats a 4 bet on a low board is a losing play. I have several examples of where I've done this and been called down by QQ and JJ.
That's all we are really talking about.
I was agreeing with Marg that if you are shoving your big pairs as well then you also get away with shoving AK.