--micromachine's beginner cash game thread--

[RVladimiro]

Table and blind depended nitty table i can open 24off UTG(if i do that i have ill attentions if i get 3bet though).3bet manics on the button.sb,bb i might fold KJs,in the cuttoff.It just depends
The thing is unless set minning or getting great odds in the blinds with suited connectors to always be in the lead going to a flop.Folding to a 3bet is not a bad thing if you have a AJ type of hand etc.

Bold is mine.

That and changing gears. If suddenly they start 3betting, step back, then start again, exploit their awareness and tendencies. I had tables where I stole 0%, others where I stole 60%. As I see it everything is very situational.

 

[taaron]

Wow!; Thanks for the great thread and advice ya'll got going here;

I appreciate what you are suggesting with the 3bet% for 6max; I obviously have alot of leaks to plug as well.

Completely agree with ya'll about folding in the blinds, or reraising, I typically try to play a much tighter range in sb/bb; although if there is only 1-2 limpers in front then I may widen ALOT, as I'm seeing a free flop.

I just posted a new thread about a specific hand I played from the BB in a 10max SnG ealier today; its in the learning poker section. . .

thannks again for all the great info fellas!

 

[micromachine]

OK, did a bit better last night, 2BI up by the end, bankroll is $110.

Having checked my PT3 data I can see that calling 3-bets is a MASSIVE leak for me. Total profit yesterday at 2NL was -$35. If use the filter for facing 3-bet, it is -$31. And if I use the filter for facing a 3-bet and I called, it is -$28 !!

Looks like I have found a huge leak and would be just about breaking even if I knew how to deal with 3-betting properly. Here is what I plan to do...

-Call MUCH less 3-bets, either fold or 4-bet like 90% of them
-Stop set-mining when people have 3-betted
-Increase the frequency of my own 3 bets, using it for blind defence either for value with hands like AK or as a semibluff with hands like 9Ts.
-Keep an eye on the 3 bet stats of others - I have added 3bet%and foldto3bet% to my HUD stats so they are always visible.

Anyone got any other good recommendations?

 

[Cafeman]

Hiya micro

Great thread you got going here ! Subscribed.

I'm gonna stay at 2NL until I am beating it though

This !!! I started playing mid January at 10nl. Just threw about 500 quid on pokerstars and started flapping about. But after a few posts here and the realisation that I knew fck all about what I was doing, I went down to 2nl at the beginning of February, with the very same intentions you have. To learn, and to move up when I'm beating the current stake. No point just going by BR if you are a losing player right!

Keep up the good work and the results will follow.

And stop calling 3bets! In fact, certainly at the micros, calling is the biggest mistake OTHERS make... so exploit it, and don't become one of them. I can fold for England me

 

[JOEBOB69]

MM give this a good read for help on your 3bet pots.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/concept-week-7-3betting-436868/

 

[Shufflin]

MM give this a good read for help on your 3bet pots.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/concept-week-7-3betting-436868/

^^Excellent article!

 

[Eddie Leeway]

I just started to play online after 6-7 years

I really need to brush up after reading this thread....thanks*

 

[alaskabill]

MM give this a good read for help on your 3bet pots.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/concept-week-7-3betting-436868/

Great article.

FWIW Baluga Whale advocates never calling a 3-bet OOP in the micros.

OP you can get a free trial subscription to Deuces Cracked. If you do that download a series called Coaching Kristy. In the series Andrew "Baluga Whale" Seidman coaches Kristy Arnett (a poker reporter) through the micros in 6 max. Its excellent. Baluga has a unique gift for explaining poker in an easy to understand way and I am a shameless fanboy when it comes to his teaching.

I know that whenever anyone suggests a rule based approach like "never call a 3-bet oop" people always say, "it depends. What about table dynamics, reads etc?" This is all correct, however, you have to start somewhere. If you (anyone not just you MM ) had great skills at reading villains and exploiting table dynamics etc you wouldn't be struggling at the micros.

Its okay to start with a fairly simple approach and frankly that will be enough to beat 2NL and 5NL at least. Obviously as you play and learn more you can expand your bag of tricks but you will beat 2NL and 5NL just by value betting like crazy, using position and following the Baluga Whale Theorem.

I think its a leak if you start over thinking your play against bad players. In general they aren't bluffing as much as you think, they aren't 3 betting as light as you think and they can't respond to a "move" by you since, for the most part they are only vaguely aware of you. You are just that annoying guy who keeps lucking out against them.

 

[taaron]

excellent advice and links to those articles;

I really like what alaska bill said , about over thinking the way we play against bad players,

learning alot from u fellas, thanks & all the best

 

[micromachine]

Discipline problem

I still have a discipline problem - I make plays which I know are risky/wrong.

For example, last night I made a standard 3x raise preflop with QQ and got 3-bet all in by a similar sized stack (100BB). I thought about it, thought that it would be a risky/bad call....and then pressed the call button! WTF! I just couldn't resist and my QQ looked so nice. Of course, he had AA and took my stack.

So I decided to write a rule-set for calling shoves preflop:

For over 150BB - AA only
For 50-150BB - AA or KK only
For 25-50BB - AA, KK, QQ, AK
For up to 25BB - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ

Does that sound sensible?

 

[micromachine]

...and thanks very much for the 3-bet article link from JOEBOB, and for the Baluga Whale recommendation from alaskabill. Will be sure to check these out.

 

[JOEBOB69]

UMMMMM so sitting at a 2nl table villain has 3.20 and you hav 3.08 some one 3bet\4bets shoves on you your folding KK?Don't do that!!!!

 

[Cafeman]

UMMMMM so sitting at a 2nl table villain has 3.20 and you hav 3.08 some one 3bet\4bets shoves on you your folding KK?Don't do that!!!!

Yeah, unless you have a specific read (he only 3bet shoves AA) then you're not in bad shape against the 'standard' get it in range (QQ+ & AK). You really don't want to be folding KK when a fck tonne of people are getting it in with AK.

 

[micromachine]

So you think this is better...

For over 50BB - AA or KK only
For 25-50BB - AA, KK, QQ, AK
For up to 25BB - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ

Yeah TBH I prob wouldn't be able to fold KK preflop but my thinking was that it may save money in the long run because I only really see people with 100BB+ shoving AA, KK and occasionally AK at 2NL. So it seems like you will be behind almost 50% of the time. Would it not be better to wait for less risky post-flop opportunities to get your stack in you have 150BB+?

 

[RVladimiro]

I still have a discipline problem - I make plays which I know are risky/wrong.

For example, last night I made a standard 3x raise preflop with QQ and got 3-bet all in by a similar sized stack (100BB). I thought about it, thought that it would be a risky/bad call....and then pressed the call button! WTF! I just couldn't resist and my QQ looked so nice. Of course, he had AA and took my stack.

So I decided to write a rule-set for calling shoves preflop:

For over 150BB - AA only
For 50-150BB - AA or KK only
For 25-50BB - AA, KK, QQ, AK
For up to 25BB - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ

Does that sound sensible?

This doesn't make any sense to me. If a maniac 3bets 40% but has a stack of 200BB you are not going to call with KK? That decision should be villain related, not stack related. People stack with so much weird stuff at 2NL that I really don't see the point of basing that on your stack. To be honest, it's much easier to stack JJ than AK as far as I am concerned.

Take notes on what they are shoving, I'll call a shove with 99 against a villain that shoves any pair like he saw wsop guys doing on ESPN.

 

[Cafeman]

Take notes on what they are shoving

I almost wrote this too. My standard note taking includes any hands I see go to show down that are all-in (AI) preflop like so:-

PF: AI = JJ,AKs,AQo

That way if you play against the same people a lot you get a feel for what they are prepared to stack off with PF. I just keep updating the list as I go.

I'm surprised you don't see more people getting it in PF with AK though.

 

[bgomez89]

This doesn't make any sense to me. If a maniac 3bets 40% but has a stack of 200BB you are not going to call with KK? That decision should be villain related, not stack related. People stack with so much weird stuff at 2NL that I really don't see the point of basing that on your stack. To be honest, it's much easier to stack JJ than AK as far as I am concerned.

Take notes on what they are shoving, I'll call a shove with 99 against a villain that shoves any pair like he saw WSOP guys doing on ESPN.

+1. Your stack of range depends on the player not completely stack sizes. Also here are my 2nl stats for your viewing pleasure

~27k hands
34/16
AFq: 43
3bet total 6%
Steal 31%
BB fold to steal 63%
SB fold to steal 77%

Pretty bad but i beat it for 20+bb/100

 

[JOEBOB69]

+1. Your stack of range depends on the player not completely stack sizes. Also here are my 2nl stats for your viewing pleasure

~27k hands
34/16
AFq: 43
3bet total 6%
Steal 31%
BB fold to steal 63%
SB fold to steal 77%

Pretty bad but i beat it for 20+bb/100

Don't mine me asking whats your fold to 3bet%,and your squeeze%

 

[RVladimiro]

Knowing that you beat 2NL in 27K hands is certainly giving a sense of hope. I'm on 32K hands and at ~70$ of the 100$ I need for 5NL.

 

[baudib1]

MM you're calling way too much in general, especially from the SB. And you need to play a ton more hands, and play them more aggressively, from the BTN.

 

[JOEBOB69]

MM don't know if you had time to read the other i linked you to.But this would help on your 3bet studying for the week.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-restealing-tour-micros-975177/

 

[micromachine]

MM don't know if you had time to read the other i linked you to.But this would help on your 3bet studying for the week.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-restealing-tour-micros-975177/

Just read the first one, it was a very interesting article. I had never thought about the concept of protecting the CO/BTN with 3-bets being more important that protecting the blinds with 3-bets before.

I don't think I have been considering whether I am IP when calling 3-bets until recently and can see that it is a huge consideration. He reinforces that 3-bets should hardly ever be flatted and to use well timed 4-bets instead.

Also, it reminded me that you should watch the villains to your left and right more than the others. In the article, he is talking about full ring and suggests watching the 2 villains to the left and the 2 villains to the right. Is this true for 6 max or can we reduce it a bit? (so I have less people to concentrate on) I suppose you make most money from the people to your right (because you have position on them) - so could it be reduced to 1 villain to the left and 2 to the right for a 6max beginner like me?

 

[JOEBOB69]

Well like always postion is always key.Always have the manic fish that go retarded and spew money on your right,and the tight nits to your left so you can rob them blind.Yeah you can reduce this for 6max CO=MP1 and every one opens weaker than FR.

 

[micromachine]

but am I right in thinking it is more important to watch those on your right than those on your left?

If you had to reduce it to only watch 2 players on a 6max table, which would they be?

 

[JOEBOB69]

If i could only watch two an only two i would watch the two to my left they have postion on me an i don't like that.Plus i'm a thief an i love free blinds
Edit:but i can watch them all.If you want to punish the villains to your right with a very high PFR make sure there fold to 3bet is real high,with out a top 2-3% hand.And i would only 3bet a depolarized range at 2nl.