Getting it in preflop with AK

[MrFold]

Big slick makes me sick

:bawling:Weird. I was just playing in a tournament and reading this thread at the same time. I caught AK as my hole cards. I normally hate this hand. Whatever I do with it - raise big or flat call I lose 90 per cent of the time.
This time I called a raiser at 3 times the big blind. One other guy called too. Flop was 7, 7, King. Great, I thought. I've got top pair and the chances of anyone catching trip 7s are low. One guy raises, I go all in. He goes all in and the third guy goes all in. First guy has a pair of 10s. Second guy has King Jack suited (hearts) and of course he hits his flush draw. Yep, I really hate AK.

:bawling::bawling:

 

[Chris_TC]

And are we talking about hands where you get 4-bet and shove, or where you get 3-bet and 4-bet shove, or what?

It includes any all-ins preflop, no matter how they happened. But in just about all cases it's either 4-bet (and then) call or 3-bet (and then) shove.

The reason I ask is because if we're looking at hands where you have 3-bet, the other guy 4-bets and you shove, then your "baseline" isn't 0BB/100, it's -25BB/100 (or whatever amount of big blinds you have 3-bet to) meaning that the shove is still profitable, even if it shows a net loss.

That's a pretty good point, I never thought of it. 3-bets are generally in the vicinity of 10 to 15 big blinds, so that would shift the EV of those shoves significantly.
We had already discussed that 4-bet/folding is not an option so once you've 4-bet, calling it off has gotta be +EV versus pretty much anyone.

 

[F Paulsson]

That's a pretty good point, I never thought of it. 3-bets are generally in the vicinity of 10 to 15 big blinds, so that would shift the EV of those shoves significantly.
We had already discussed that 4-bet/folding is not an option so once you've 4-bet, calling it off has gotta be +EV versus pretty much anyone.

Er. The "25 big blinds" thing I wrote was a screwup on my part. I'm playing mostly 1/2, so $25 is around what a standard 3-bet comes up to, hence the mistake. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I'm glad it didn't mess up my main point too much.

 

[baudib1]

:bawling:Weird. I was just playing in a tournament and reading this thread at the same time. I caught AK as my hole cards. I normally hate this hand. Whatever I do with it - raise big or flat call I lose 90 per cent of the time.
This time I called a raiser at 3 times the big blind. One other guy called too. Flop was 7, 7, King. Great, I thought. I've got top pair and the chances of anyone catching trip 7s are low. One guy raises, I go all in. He goes all in and the third guy goes all in. First guy has a pair of 10s. Second guy has King Jack suited (hearts) and of course he hits his flush draw. Yep, I really hate AK.

:bawling::bawling:

This is just silly. First, I really doubt you're losing 90% of the time with AK. Even a blind monkey is going to win with AK a lot. Second, because you held AK, you were way ahead when the money went in. The fact that you lost has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the hand. It's a bad beat but not a memorably bad one; I think you have just lost a lot of big hands at key moments with it, aren't playing it correctly, and are being superstitious and/or silly. KJs is going to hit his J or BD flush about 21% of the time there, but that's not AK's fault.

 

[mange]

What are the odds?

Big Slick off suite.

If one player has AK os and goes all in against a player with 89 suited.

Who has the best odds of winning?

 

[hipshot55]

Big Slick off suite.

If one player has AK os and goes all in against a player with 89 suited.

Who has the best odds of winning?

AKo - 60.1%
89s - 39.9%

So 89s is a 3:2 dog.

As a gentle suggestion, you can do any of these type of calculations at https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-calculator.php

 

[MrFold]

This is just silly. First, I really doubt you're losing 90% of the time with AK. Even a blind monkey is going to win with AK a lot. Second, because you held AK, you were way ahead when the money went in. The fact that you lost has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the hand. It's a bad beat but not a memorably bad one; I think you have just lost a lot of big hands at key moments with it, aren't playing it correctly, and are being superstitious and/or silly. KJs is going to hit his J or BD flush about 21% of the time there, but that's not AK's fault.

Er, not being 'silly', 'superstitious' or a 'blind monkey'. Just had a lot of bad experiences of playing Ace King. As to whether I'm playing it correctly, that's a moot point. How you play it depends on the circumstances and the players you're up against. It hasn't worked out for me. I'm glad it has for you.

 

[Agent Purple]

Honestly.. I prefer AK suited over QQ.. You could hit an ace. or king, or a straight, or a flush.. queen can only hit another queen to beat those hands.. and that's unlikely.

 

[bulldog2782]

Honestly.. I prefer AK suited over QQ.. You could hit an ace. or king, or a straight, or a flush.. queen can only hit another queen to beat those hands.. and that's unlikely.

If you shove all in AKs vs QQ with the queen not being in the suit of the AK then the AK with win about 46% of the time and the QQ about 54% so even though you might think it would be better to have the AK it is always better to have a pair preflop then two overcards. But in the short term it does not really make to much of a difference.

 

[baudib1]

Er, not being 'silly', 'superstitious' or a 'blind monkey'. Just had a lot of bad experiences of playing Ace King. As to whether I'm playing it correctly, that's a moot point. How you play it depends on the circumstances and the players you're up against. It hasn't worked out for me. I'm glad it has for you.

Yes you are being silly. You were a huge favorite to win a huge pot in the example you gave. The fact that you lost has nothing to do with it being Ace-King.

 

[MrFold]

Yes you are being silly. You were a huge favorite to win a huge pot in the example you gave. The fact that you lost has nothing to do with it being Ace-King.

I think you're the one being very silly and rather immature by labouring a crass point. I gave you an example of what happened as I read through this thread. There is nothing very amazing about that hand - it happens all the time. My bigger point, if you read what I wrote more carefully, is that in my experience AK is a difficult hand to play and has not worked out well for me in the past. I am sure I have played it wrongly on occasions. And I'm sure I've hit some pretty bad beats on other occasions. So please concentrate on the wider point - and stop being so blooming silly.

 

[Chris_TC]

Guys, this thread wasn't going to discuss the overall profitability of AK. AK is among my top 10 (maybe even top 5, would have to check) most profitable hands.

 

[TSM12]

too push or not too push

AK is only a little underdog to a smaller pair. However, I never like the all in push unless you have more chips than everyone else at the table. You should mix up your play. Sometimes pushing and others just calling. Of course in means that you have to be paying attention to the habbits of the other players and what they are playing. Some times, you ill just have to pay them off to see the crap that they play. You may loose some chips, but the information is sometimes invaluable. In an unraised pot, I would normally raise 4 times the pot. If you notice that there is a player that raises with any A (i.e.: A,7, A 6, etc..) then you should reraise them. Be prepared for them to push. Don't be afraid and call them immediately. Even if they have a small PP, this will let them know that you are willing to gamble. I normally do not like to gamble preflop, but this would be playing the player.

I really do not like AK, but when it hits, it is almost like gold. So just pay attention and mixup your play. After all, you will want someone with a small pp calling you when you have AA or KK.

 

[AJackson]

ChuckTs asked me to come by a comment on this thread. Lots of good posts in this thread and I think Fredick got to the central issue.

Cliff notes: You can only fold AK pf against the tightest of the tight. When I filter for 3/4betting pf w/ AK I’m highly profitable (and I’ve been on a sick downswing over this sample size). When I only filter for the times I get it all-in preflop I’m slightly negative. You cant evaluate a move when you ignore all the money you pick up from folds.

Those of you who believe that AK is overvalued are correct. People think that card values go something like AA,KK,QQ,AK,JJ. . .AK may rank 4th, but not for the same reasons those big pockets make up the rest of the top 5 list. AK’s strength lies not in it’s naked value, but in it’s value as a semi-bluff. I say semi-bluff because by the time you realize you’re up against a big hand there’s enough dead money in the middle that the high drawing equity of AK makes getting it in more profitable than folding (more profitable can still mean a negative outcome, but less negative than folding).

You’re facing a three bet. With a few exceptions some of his range is bluffs and he may even be turning medium strength hands into bluffs (AQ,KQ,99,88). You can’t let someone 3 bet you with impunity and AK is the best hand to do something about it. When you’re 4 betting with AK you don’t know if they have the upper end of their range or not. By the time you find out, there is so much dead money that you have to get it in.

Now when you go in HM and evaluate how AK does when you get it all-in pf it might show the a loss. I think over the long term it will almost certainly show a loss.

Instead of filtering AKo,AKs and for ‘All in Preflop=True’ filter for ‘Raised Preflop 3 Bet=True’ . This will include all the folds you get when you have AK and three bet. You should be profitable. If you have a large sample size and you’re negative here, I’d be surprised. You could even be slightly negative and it still be net positive because just folding is a small loss.

The second area (not included in the above filter), is where there can be some debate. When you 3 bet AK and are facing a 4 bet. Filter for this as Ako,Aks and ‘Did 3 Bet=True’-not ‘All-in=True’ for the same reasons as above. Once your opponent 4 bets, his range is much, much tighter when compared to the above situation and there's less dead money in the pot.

It comes down to a simple math exercise:

You three bet a 3.5x opener to 11x. He 4 bets to 24x. What equity do you need to get your money in with AK?

Using StoxEV’s Math tool for shoving I find that we need 44.2% equity if he’s never folding. Their range needs to be just slightly larger than TT+,AKs,AKo. Because TT=QQ against AK even a range of QQ+,AKs,AKo, only fairs slightly worst. If you believe that they only have a top 4-6 hand and are never getting out of line, then you can fold. I’ve rarely been in that situation, very few players are that tight. Especially if you 3 bet as much as I do.

I can say with almost certainty that you should never fold AK in COvsB/Blinds, BvsBlinds, SBvsBB.

I can sometimes find a fold verses a cold 4 better who is tight ( I’m on the button and I three bet an UTG opener and a tight unimaginative regular cold bets out of blinds). I’ve sometimes chickened out after three betting a tight utg opener.


To the subject of flatting 3 bets w/ AK. I imagine you could find some narrow situations where it might work, but I’m having trouble of thinking of anything concrete. You can’t flat because you’re only going to hit 1 in 3 flops. Hands that you’re flipping w/ preflop will make you fold when you miss and mostly not pay you off when you hit. Sometimes worst hands that also miss will push you off your hand. With you missing so many flops, those coin flip type opponent hands gain a big edge. Expert post flop play and really knowing your opponent could turn this profitable, but it’s not a part of my game.

4 Betting size. OOP I like to 4 bet a bit bigger to avoid flatting, something like 2.75x the 3 bet. It also discourages mid pocket pairs from shoving thinking they have some fold equity (I’d rather have them fold and give me the pot than flip for 200BB). Against someone who has a tendency to flat 4 bets I like to shove. When I have position I’ll go a bit less, like 2.25x especially against someone who I think can monkey off w/ worst aces. If they flat a lot OOP I keep it a bit bigger.

 

[WVHillbilly]

^^^Now that's a GREAT 1st post! I certainly hope ChuckTs talks you into not making it your last.

 

[S93]

If you shove all in AKs vs QQ with the queen not being in the suit of the AK then the AK with win about 46% of the time and the QQ about 54% so even though you might think it would be better to have the AK it is always better to have a pair preflop then two overcards. But in the short term it does not really make to much of a difference.

Not allways
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.459% 52.09% 00.37% 891897 6353.00 { JdTd }
Hand 1: 47.541% 47.17% 00.37% 807701 6353.00 { 5c5s }

ChuckTs asked me to come by a comment on this thread. Lots of good posts in this thread and I think Fredick got to the central issue.

Cliff notes: You can only fold AK pf against the tightest of the tight. When I filter for 3/4betting pf w/ AK I’m highly profitable (and I’ve been on a sick downswing over this sample size). When I only filter for the times I get it all-in preflop I’m slightly negative. You cant evaluate a move when you ignore all the money you pick up from folds.

Those of you who believe that AK is overvalued are correct. People think that card values go something like AA,KK,QQ,AK,JJ. . .AK may rank 4th, but not for the same reasons those big pockets make up the rest of the top 5 list. AK’s strength lies not in it’s naked value, but in it’s value as a semi-bluff. I say semi-bluff because by the time you realize you’re up against a big hand there’s enough dead money in the middle that the high drawing equity of AK makes getting it in more profitable than folding (more profitable can still mean a negative outcome, but less negative than folding).

You’re facing a three bet. With a few exceptions some of his range is bluffs and he may even be turning medium strength hands into bluffs (AQ,KQ,99,88). You can’t let someone 3 bet you with impunity and AK is the best hand to do something about it. When you’re 4 betting with AK you don’t know if they have the upper end of their range or not. By the time you find out, there is so much dead money that you have to get it in.

Now when you go in HM and evaluate how AK does when you get it all-in pf it might show the a loss. I think over the long term it will almost certainly show a loss.

Instead of filtering AKo,AKs and for ‘All in Preflop=True’ filter for ‘Raised Preflop 3 Bet=True’ . This will include all the folds you get when you have AK and three bet. You should be profitable. If you have a large sample size and you’re negative here, I’d be surprised. You could even be slightly negative and it still be net positive because just folding is a small loss.

The second area (not included in the above filter), is where there can be some debate. When you 3 bet AK and are facing a 4 bet. Filter for this as Ako,Aks and ‘Did 3 Bet=True’-not ‘All-in=True’ for the same reasons as above. Once your opponent 4 bets, his range is much, much tighter when compared to the above situation and there's less dead money in the pot.

It comes down to a simple math exercise:

You three bet a 3.5x opener to 11x. He 4 bets to 24x. What equity do you need to get your money in with AK?

Using StoxEV’s Math tool for shoving I find that we need 44.2% equity if he’s never folding. Their range needs to be just slightly larger than TT+,AKs,AKo. Because TT=QQ against AK even a range of QQ+,AKs,AKo, only fairs slightly worst. If you believe that they only have a top 4-6 hand and are never getting out of line, then you can fold. I’ve rarely been in that situation, very few players are that tight. Especially if you 3 bet as much as I do.

I can say with almost certainty that you should never fold AK in COvsB/Blinds, BvsBlinds, SBvsBB.

I can sometimes find a fold verses a cold 4 better who is tight ( I’m on the button and I three bet an UTG opener and a tight unimaginative regular cold bets out of blinds). I’ve sometimes chickened out after three betting a tight utg opener.


To the subject of flatting 3 bets w/ AK. I imagine you could find some narrow situations where it might work, but I’m having trouble of thinking of anything concrete. You can’t flat because you’re only going to hit 1 in 3 flops. Hands that you’re flipping w/ preflop will make you fold when you miss and mostly not pay you off when you hit. Sometimes worst hands that also miss will push you off your hand. With you missing so many flops, those coin flip type opponent hands gain a big edge. Expert post flop play and really knowing your opponent could turn this profitable, but it’s not a part of my game.

4 Betting size. OOP I like to 4 bet a bit bigger to avoid flatting, something like 2.75x the 3 bet. It also discourages mid pocket pairs from shoving thinking they have some fold equity (I’d rather have them fold and give me the pot than flip for 200BB). Against someone who has a tendency to flat 4 bets I like to shove. When I have position I’ll go a bit less, like 2.25x especially against someone who I think can monkey off w/ worst aces. If they flat a lot OOP I keep it a bit bigger.

Great post,even if i only understood half of it

 

[aloevera]

Woah that was so totally cool to read, like sindri I understood some of it but will have to read it over and over again to get it all

A warm welcome to CC, AJackson

I can't wait till your 2nd post.

 

[zachvac]

To the subject of flatting 3 bets w/ AK. I imagine you could find some narrow situations where it might work, but I’m having trouble of thinking of anything concrete. You can’t flat because you’re only going to hit 1 in 3 flops. Hands that you’re flipping w/ preflop will make you fold when you miss and mostly not pay you off when you hit. Sometimes worst hands that also miss will push you off your hand. With you missing so many flops, those coin flip type opponent hands gain a big edge. Expert post flop play and really knowing your opponent could turn this profitable, but it’s not a part of my game.

Here you are implying that AK flatting will play fit or fold postflop. Obviously it's villain-dependent but against a ton of opponents it's the perfect candidate for simply floating a flop bet and then taking it away on the turn. I know you play 400nl 6max (not sure if you do higher, but that's what you played on the video I watched) and my data's from 200nl FR, but last month despite having a losing month, the hands where I flatted AK won at a rate of 157.51 PTBB/100, or $856.85 over 136 hands (total sample was ~110k hands). One of these I actually ended up backraising and winning a flip against QQ, but even if you subtract $200 from that it's still a pretty healthy winrate over a somewhat decent sample size. I definitely think it shows it can be profitable and as I mentioned I wasn't even an overall winning player (before bonuses anyway) last month.

Now that's not to say I wouldn't have made more money from 3-betting in some or almost all of the spots, I'm just saying you seem to be suggesting that the only option if you flat AK preflop is to play it fit or fold.


Thanks for posting here btw, I've enjoyed all your Stox vids so far .

 

[shinedown.45]

Big Slick off suite.

If one player has AK os and goes all in against a player with 89 suited.

Who has the best odds of winning?

AKo - 60.1%
89s - 39.9%

So 89s is a 3:2 dog.

As a gentle suggestion, you can do any of these type of calculations at https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-calculator.php

Er, not being 'silly', 'superstitious' or a 'blind monkey'. Just had a lot of bad experiences of playing Ace King. As to whether I'm playing it correctly, that's a moot point. How you play it depends on the circumstances and the players you're up against. It hasn't worked out for me. I'm glad it has for you.

If you shove all in AKs vs QQ with the queen not being in the suit of the AK then the AK with win about 46% of the time and the QQ about 54% so even though you might think it would be better to have the AK it is always better to have a pair preflop then two overcards. But in the short term it does not really make to much of a difference.

Yes you are being silly. You were a huge favorite to win a huge pot in the example you gave. The fact that you lost has nothing to do with it being Ace-King.

I think you're the one being very silly and rather immature by labouring a crass point. I gave you an example of what happened as I read through this thread. There is nothing very amazing about that hand - it happens all the time. My bigger point, if you read what I wrote more carefully, is that in my experience AK is a difficult hand to play and has not worked out well for me in the past. I am sure I have played it wrongly on occasions. And I'm sure I've hit some pretty bad beats on other occasions. So please concentrate on the wider point - and stop being so blooming silly.

AK is only a little underdog to a smaller pair. However, I never like the all in push unless you have more chips than everyone else at the table. You should mix up your play. Sometimes pushing and others just calling. Of course in means that you have to be paying attention to the habbits of the other players and what they are playing. Some times, you ill just have to pay them off to see the crap that they play. You may loose some chips, but the information is sometimes invaluable. In an unraised pot, I would normally raise 4 times the pot. If you notice that there is a player that raises with any A (i.e.: A,7, A 6, etc..) then you should reraise them. Be prepared for them to push. Don't be afraid and call them immediately. Even if they have a small PP, this will let them know that you are willing to gamble. I normally do not like to gamble preflop, but this would be playing the player.

I really do not like AK, but when it hits, it is almost like gold. So just pay attention and mixup your play. After all, you will want someone with a small pp calling you when you have AA or KK.

__________All posts above this line, How does what you are posting have anything to do with flatting, pushing, 3-betting or 4-betting with AK, stick to the topic at hand or post your AK stories in one of the other AK threads.

ChuckTs asked me to come by a comment on this thread. Lots of good posts in this thread and I think Fredick got to the central issue.

Cliff notes: You can only fold AK pf against the tightest of the tight. When I filter for 3/4betting pf w/ AK I’m highly profitable (and I’ve been on a sick downswing over this sample size). When I only filter for the times I get it all-in preflop I’m slightly negative. You cant evaluate a move when you ignore all the money you pick up from folds.

Those of you who believe that AK is overvalued are correct. People think that card values go something like AA,KK,QQ,AK,JJ. . .AK may rank 4th, but not for the same reasons those big pockets make up the rest of the top 5 list. AK’s strength lies not in it’s naked value, but in it’s value as a semi-bluff. I say semi-bluff because by the time you realize you’re up against a big hand there’s enough dead money in the middle that the high drawing equity of AK makes getting it in more profitable than folding (more profitable can still mean a negative outcome, but less negative than folding).

You’re facing a three bet. With a few exceptions some of his range is bluffs and he may even be turning medium strength hands into bluffs (AQ,KQ,99,88). You can’t let someone 3 bet you with impunity and AK is the best hand to do something about it. When you’re 4 betting with AK you don’t know if they have the upper end of their range or not. By the time you find out, there is so much dead money that you have to get it in.

Now when you go in HM and evaluate how AK does when you get it all-in pf it might show the a loss. I think over the long term it will almost certainly show a loss.

Instead of filtering AKo,AKs and for ‘All in Preflop=True’ filter for ‘Raised Preflop 3 Bet=True’ . This will include all the folds you get when you have AK and three bet. You should be profitable. If you have a large sample size and you’re negative here, I’d be surprised. You could even be slightly negative and it still be net positive because just folding is a small loss.

The second area (not included in the above filter), is where there can be some debate. When you 3 bet AK and are facing a 4 bet. Filter for this as Ako,Aks and ‘Did 3 Bet=True’-not ‘All-in=True’ for the same reasons as above. Once your opponent 4 bets, his range is much, much tighter when compared to the above situation and there's less dead money in the pot.

It comes down to a simple math exercise:

You three bet a 3.5x opener to 11x. He 4 bets to 24x. What equity do you need to get your money in with AK?

Using StoxEV’s Math tool for shoving I find that we need 44.2% equity if he’s never folding. Their range needs to be just slightly larger than TT+,AKs,AKo. Because TT=QQ against AK even a range of QQ+,AKs,AKo, only fairs slightly worst. If you believe that they only have a top 4-6 hand and are never getting out of line, then you can fold. I’ve rarely been in that situation, very few players are that tight. Especially if you 3 bet as much as I do.

I can say with almost certainty that you should never fold AK in COvsB/Blinds, BvsBlinds, SBvsBB.

I can sometimes find a fold verses a cold 4 better who is tight ( I’m on the button and I three bet an UTG opener and a tight unimaginative regular cold bets out of blinds). I’ve sometimes chickened out after three betting a tight utg opener.


To the subject of flatting 3 bets w/ AK. I imagine you could find some narrow situations where it might work, but I’m having trouble of thinking of anything concrete. You can’t flat because you’re only going to hit 1 in 3 flops. Hands that you’re flipping w/ preflop will make you fold when you miss and mostly not pay you off when you hit. Sometimes worst hands that also miss will push you off your hand. With you missing so many flops, those coin flip type opponent hands gain a big edge. Expert post flop play and really knowing your opponent could turn this profitable, but it’s not a part of my game.

4 Betting size. OOP I like to 4 bet a bit bigger to avoid flatting, something like 2.75x the 3 bet. It also discourages mid pocket pairs from shoving thinking they have some fold equity (I’d rather have them fold and give me the pot than flip for 200BB). Against someone who has a tendency to flat 4 bets I like to shove. When I have position I’ll go a bit less, like 2.25x especially against someone who I think can monkey off w/ worst aces. If they flat a lot OOP I keep it a bit bigger.

I would also like to say nice 1st post AJackson.
I know what I'm about to type will not really contribute much in the way of winning percentage of AK as I don't have HEM or pokertracker to graph but would like to ask a some simple questions just to help me better understand 3-betting and 4-betting and when it becomes profitable to do so.
1. If I understand correctly, 3-betting and 4-betting pertain to when you re-raise a 3rd or 4th time?, Like as in there is a bet then a raise then a re-raise and then you make a re-raise(4-betting?)
2. If 1 is true, then is it profitable in the long run to push a 3-bet/flat a 4-bet in position and flat a 3-bet/fold a 4-bet OOP against a tight player?
If the above is along the right line of thinking then how do we act against a LAG in similar spots?
Do we push or flat a 4-bet against a LAG?
And when answering, please let me know what level you are making these moves, thanks.

 

[Jagsti]

I'm just saying you seem to be suggesting that the only option if you flat AK preflop is to play it fit or fold.

Actually Zach, I don't think he is suggesting it's the only line with AK.:

'To the subject of flatting 3 bets w/ AK. I imagine you could find some narrow situations where it might work...... Expert post flop play and really knowing your opponent could turn this profitable, but it’s not a part of my game'

I think I could see the odd occasion were I would flat a 3bet, just to mix it up occasionally, but I'd probably have a good read on my villain in that I'd be able to outplay them post flop..... which like never happens .

Great 1st post Alan, please don't make it your last, thx for your input.

 

[AJackson]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys. I’m not much of a forum guy-between grinding, coaching, and life I don’t have much spare time-so I don’t know how much I’ll post.

First, if you’re serious about poker, get HM. Using trackers and studying my game using them is why I’m a poker professional. Without those tools I couldn’t be where I’m at today.
1. If I understand correctly, 3-betting and 4-betting pertain to when you re-raise a 3rd or 4th time?, Like as in there is a bet then a raise then a re-raise and then you make a re-raise(4-betting?)

The terminology also confused me. A 3 bet is a reraise. I assume the thinking is that the blind represents the first bet, therefore the raise is the second bet.

2. If 1 is true, then is it profitable in the long run to push a 3-bet/flat a 4-bet in position and flat a 3-bet/fold a 4-bet OOP against a tight player?
If the above is along the right line of thinking then how do we act against a LAG in similar spots?

The only flatting you should be doing is w/ big hand when you have position and I only do that against guys who fold to 4 bets a lot. OOP it’s too difficult to get paid post flop. I really don’t differential much between TAG and LAG in these situations. I think more in terms of how aggressive the opponent is post flop. Both LAGS and TAGS will barrel off lightly post flop. Look at their post flop aggression and betting frequencies. If they bet a lot post flop it makes me more likely to call.

HOWEVER, when you’re flatting w/ AA and KK you will lose value from your opponents JJ and AK that are usually willing to get it all in preflop but will sometimes not be willing to do so post flop. You have to make up this missed value by getting them to put more money in the pot w/ hands that would have folded to your shove. That’s a tough combo. I prefer to play an aggressive preflop game that allows me to get it in preflop w/ my big hands w/ the one exception being against players who fold to 4 bets a lot.

And when answering, please let me know what level you are making these moves,

I 12 table 400-2000 w/ most of my play being 400 and 600.

Here you are implying that AK flatting will play fit or fold postflop. Obviously it's villain-dependent but against a ton of opponents it's the perfect candidate for simply floating a flop bet and then taking it away on the turn. I know you play 400nl 6max (not sure if you do higher, but that's what you played on the video I watched) and my data's from 200nl FR, but last month despite having a losing month, the hands where I flatted AK won at a rate of 157.51 PTBB/100, or $856.85 over 136 hands (total sample was ~110k hands). One of these I actually ended up backraising and winning a flip against QQ, but even if you subtract $200 from that it's still a pretty healthy winrate over a somewhat decent sample size. I definitely think it shows it can be profitable and as I mentioned I wasn't even an overall winning player (before bonuses anyway) last month.

This very reasonable and I do it sometimes. I’ll even do it w/ suited connectors. I hesitate to get too much in these types of moves because I think for most players it just turns into spew since there are a lot of factors that have to be in play for this to work.

.I also sometimes go for back raises w/ AK,JJ+ when there’s big squeezer left to act and the opener folds to 3 bets a lot.

Overall, I think people spend too much time thinking about these type of tricky plays. Yes, if properly done they add value to your win rate. However that’s not where the real money is. The real money up through 400 is table selection and solid play in highly repetitive situations (stealing/3 betting/cbetting /double barreling). I call it the stack-a-donk style. Get fish on your right and stack them. Once this is perfected, then start working on the fancy stuff (floating/craise bluffing/donking/ect).

Also, I should have said this in my first post, everything I wrote is based in 6 max play. I haven’t played full ring in 2 years and some things would probably change between the two game.

The truly awesome thing about poker is there’s rarely one right answer. The trick is figuring out what you need to do to make a move/style work. This discussion is a perfect example. Flatting w/ AK pf leads to certain losses, however you can make for those losses (and hopefully gain greater profit) by picking off cbets unimproved .

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Great to have you posting here, Alan.

I think more in terms of how aggressive the opponent is post flop. Both LAGS and TAGS will barrel off lightly post flop. Look at their post flop aggression and betting frequencies. If they bet a lot post flop it makes me more likely to call.

But if they barrel lightly post flop, most of the time they will get you to fold because you don't improve by the turn like 60% of the time. What is the plan when villain fires two barrels and we don't improve? call flop/fold turn, call flop/call turn, call flop/raise turn as bluff? (i do remember Fredrik advocating this last move with AK)

I play 100nl FR myself and people just don't 3bet light enough in a lot of the games to make me 100% confortable with just shipping it preflop with AK as my standard line. I do understand that it's a lot more reasonable at 6max and higher limits.

 

[Jagsti]

I think he meant more with AA/KK Belgo, I might be wrong though!

 

[Chris_TC]

Thank you for the detailed insight, Alan, it's very appreciated and makes perfect sense!

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I think he meant more with AA/KK Belgo

oh, ok. makes perfect sense then of course.