Flush Draws

[VegasGrinder]

I agree with the post flop play being right. His stack size basicaly says he has to make a play or fold. With the pot odds and the slight chance you would fold (This being internet) he had no choice but to make the move. He was going to see the river regardless and it was going to cost him all his chips on the turn. so he might as well make a move. His call preflop says he has anything from AA to AK suited. His raise on the flop says he has a hand or is drawing to the nut and has enough outs to make the call.

PS: Putting someone on a specific hand preflop is rediculous. What made you think JJ? Try figuring a range of hands instead.

It wasn't a bad beat, it was almost a coin flip. He had the pot odds in his favor.

 

[wicdiezel]

flush draw

Unfortunately it sounds like you made the correct read, but they also made what may be the correct play at that stage. With so much inthe pot, it was worth it for the call on their part with one over card AND the nut flush draw. Fortunately for you, you were still about a 70/30 favorite there, so keep playing well and it will pay off in the end.

 

[Myar]

If I know they are on a flush draw and have them beat at that time, I will push at them. Especially if I have a much larger stack. Most of the time they will miss it, then later on when I do the same thing to other people at the table, they think about it, and usually decide its not worth the risking the same fate as the other person did.

I also push on the turn even if I hav a smaller/same stack size if I beleive they could be on a flush draw and the second of thier suit hits then or if I have not already pushed and a blank comes on the turn.

This is in SNG's of course, and I tend to push alot in them anyway when I am sure I am ahead. It helps my stack size grow alot while knocking the idiots out early on so the blinds are still really cheap with 4 people left. I get burned every now and then, but the times I dont more than makes up for it since I am usually in a very good position to get first playing that way which makes up for the few times I do get knocked out early in them when someone gets lucky. I also prefer to push if I know I am going to wind up beign all in, to make the ohter person tink about it, rather than reacting to them.

 

[ChuckTs]

i told him to go to hell.

GO TO HELL, YOU BAD PLAYER WHO JUST GAVE ME CHIPS!!!~!!!1!

...

Anyways, reraise more preflop in the first hand. Tacking on 500 to a 400 reraise isn't going to scare anyone out of the pot, and you're not getting proper value from your very strong hand.

Pop it up to like 1200, then stick the rest of your stack in on the flop unless it's, say, AK2.

People at that level would bet their life on a flush draw if they could. Nothing you can do about that except identify who raises with flush draws, and who calls down, then play accordingly.

 

[88Viking]

First off, I hate the A9 call.. and secondly, not much you could really do. WHen there is a lot of strength shown preflop, I tend to flat call and not re-raise it, just to take a peek and the flop and play cautious if I see an A or K on flop. If I don't, i'll fire.

 

[shark vs fish]

Well....

New to this site, some of the replies here are incorrect, my guess is they are not that great at poker. You did make several mistakes there. Reraising 400 to 910 from BB is wrong. You aren't raising enough to make it definitive, thereby wasting a hand as good as QQ. Such a raise is just value-betting, and you shouldn't value-bet from BB against an opponent who's shown strength. Your read of JJ he had was wrong, but who cares if he's a donkey with A9? You can't control what other players do but you can play the right way and minimize losses while maximizing gains.

The right thing to do on his 410 reraise is to either reraise to a definitive amount(say 1400) or go all-in if you think you had him beat. You said yourself that you thought you had him beat.. so since he has position on you, why would you want to play the flop against an opponent if you had him beat? Going all-in, if he called at all, he's making a mistake unless he had AA or KK. He didn't. But MOST MOST LIKELY, going all in would've made him fold.

If you didn't like the risk, then raise to 1400 or so. You're telling him basically "you want to play with me, be prepared to lose it all", and he would've folded with A9. Then on the flop unless it's very dangerous like AK9, go all in. If it's dangerous, either slowplay and check, or slowplay then bet out a very small amount. If you did that, he would have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what you got, and his reaction would tell you what he has. He calls, he has nothing. He reraises small, he's scared of you, he goes all in, you fold. If he doesn't go all in, then you go all in.

Your raise to 910 indicated you weren't that strong. Then on the flop you made the BIGGEST MISTAKE OF ALL. You didn't go ALL IN but bet just enough to commit to all-in. He took this as "You are weak, you are bluffing, I'm gonna go all in", and he did. Sure, he outdrew you, but you made him think that you missed the flop. That's what you want if you had AA, not QQ. He called reraise preflop so he would've had an A most likely(your read was not good), and your bet on flop made him go all in.

He may or may not be a donkey, but you made 3 crucial errors in one hand. Think about my suggestion, 98 out of 100 opponents don't ever win against me holding QQ for a reason.. I can't remember ever having someone outdraw me in your described situation because I simply don't play in a way to let them do that.

 

[KMC1828]

once again, i get chased down by a flush draw, only this time he didnt get the flush draw, he simply got a higher pair, lmao.

i have A9o in cutoff. me and the small blind only in the hand. we both have about the same stacks, between $4-5 on the .5/.10 tables on FT. anyway, flop comes 9s 4d 4s, he leads out with a 10c bet, so i just call, in case he does have the 4. turn is 8c. he bets 10c again, so i know he doesnt have the 4, so i raised to $1, he calls. Jc on the river, he has JQs.

did i play this completely wrong? i, just dont know what im doing wrong to have this happen so often. i know what i did wrong in the 1st hand of the thread, but this i have no idea what i did wrong.

 

[Dashir]

Put yourself into his position. The first bet is a feeler bet, testing if you have hit. Maybe you'll fold. After your turn raise, he has the flush draw (9 outs), the inside straight draw (3 more) and two overcards (plus 6). That's 18 outs assuming you don't have a 4, 12 if you do. Your bet doesn't give him pot odds to call unless he thinks a) that you're blufing or b) that you'll pay him off with more bets if he hits.

So the questions are, do always bet the flop? Does he have reason to believe that you are just trying to push him off the hand? Have you been making the calls with flush or straights on the board? Will you call a big river bet? What does he know about you?

Do you think, if you had raised his 10c that he would only come back at you with a 4? If so, then a 30c raise there might be enlightening. What do you know about him?

However, you also shouldn't be all that upset that one of his 18 outs hit. You seem fixated on the flush part of the draw.

 

[KMC1828]

it just seems like its always happening to me, and im trying to figure out what i can do to stop it from happenining. so thats why im posting them here. this is the absolute biggest flaw in my game in my opinion.

other than this little nick in my game, i think i have pretty decent game, i make fair enough reads, im learning the math part. i think i have or am learning all the right tools, i just need to incorporate them into my game.

 

[Myar]

One of the first things I note about someone, is will the play any two suited cards. If they will, I note them as a flush chaser. You WONT push these people off from chasing. If someone has played 10/3s or some other similar junk, try to make them pay when they miss thier draws, but dont risk your stack against them as they will get lucky sometimes.

How I usually deal with them is to make a good size bet on the flop. If the turn is a blank for them, I then double the bet, if they river is a blank I then 4x the bet. This how I have best been able to deal with them, and get them to fold at the turn.

 

[KMC1828]

an 8-outer this time. if that.

full tilt poker Game #3080231033: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (23531896), Table 1 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 6:18:50 ET - 2007/07/28
Seat 1: EvilKirk (1,440)
Seat 2: kegger60 (2,085)
Seat 3: Break17 (1,440)
Seat 4: Adam_Passman (765)
Seat 5: ErsterAlles (1,155)
Seat 6: LivindaGoodLife (1,770)
Seat 7: B2theDon (1,875)
Seat 8: willow5273 (1,470)
Seat 9: cctom60 (1,500)
LivindaGoodLife posts the small blind of 20
B2theDon posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Break17 [9c 9d]
willow5273 folds
cctom60 folds
B2theDon: nh
EvilKirk folds
kegger60 has 15 seconds left to act
kegger60 raises to 120
Break17 calls 120
Adam_Passman folds
ErsterAlles folds
LivindaGoodLife folds
LivindaGoodLife: ty
B2theDon has 15 seconds left to act
B2theDon calls 80
*** FLOP *** [7d 4c 3c]
B2theDon has 15 seconds left to act
B2theDon bets 380
kegger60 has 15 seconds left to act
kegger60 calls 380
Break17 raises to 1,320, and is all in
B2theDon has 15 seconds left to act
B2theDon is sitting out
B2theDon has timed out
B2theDon folds
B2theDon has returned
kegger60 has 15 seconds left to act
kegger60 calls 940
Break17 shows [9c 9d]
kegger60 shows [Ac Kd]
*** TURN *** [7d 4c 3c] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [7d 4c 3c Td] [Kh]
Break17 shows a pair of Nines
kegger60 shows a pair of Kings
kegger60 wins the pot (3,400) with a pair of Kings
Break17 stands up


once again, i think i made the right play here. just got out drawn by a stupid? call. there was a raise preflop, which i obviously called, and then a decent sized bet on the flop, which someone called,and then i raised all in on, one guy folds and i still get a call. it boggles my mind, i have no idea what im doing wrong.

 

[KMC1828]

Full Tilt poker game #3080661127: Table Veneer (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 8:34:51 ET - 2007/07/28
Seat 1: Break17 ($9.05)
Seat 2: gamelo1111 ($3.80), is sitting out
Seat 3: TheEzyRyder ($9.90)
Seat 4: jijniet ($10)
Seat 5: DindaRap ($15.05)
Seat 6: yourfever ($8.80)
jijniet posts the small blind of $0.05
DindaRap posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Break17 [9d 9h]
yourfever folds
Break17 raises to $0.35
TheEzyRyder calls $0.35
jijniet calls $0.30
DindaRap calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [8d 6c 7d]
jijniet bets $1.40
DindaRap folds
Break17 has 15 seconds left to act
DindaRap has been disconnected
Break17 raises to $4
TheEzyRyder folds
jijniet raises to $9.65, and is all in
Break17 calls $4.70, and is all in
jijniet shows [Kd Td]
Break17 shows [9d 9h]
Uncalled bet of $0.95 returned to jijniet
*** TURN *** [8d 6c 7d] [Qc]
*** RIVER *** [8d 6c 7d Qc] [Kh]
jijniet shows a pair of Kings
Break17 shows a pair of Nines
jijniet wins the pot ($17.80) with a pair of Kings
Break17 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.80 | Rake $1
Board: [8d 6c 7d Qc Kh]
Seat 1: Break17 showed [9d 9h] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 2: gamelo1111 is sitting out
Seat 3: TheEzyRyder (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: jijniet (small blind) showed [Kd Td] and won ($17.80) with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: DindaRap (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: yourfever didn't bet (folded)


going all in probably wasnt the BEST idea there, but i had an over pair and an open ended draw, and the worst case scenario, he has trips that i can either draw my own trips or an open ended straight to beat him with. i dont know. please, leave all comments on the hands i post. i need the help.

 

[5onaHard8]

i would have played it like 88Viking...with a king on the board, its a tough spot.

 

[Dashir]

This last two hands don't really relate to the rest of the thread. Obviously no bet would have caused them to fold.

I can pass on one comment I've read in a few different books, which is ... don't go broke on one pair. Small pots for small hands, big pots for big hands. It kind of looks like you're getting desperate to try to make people fold. Online, they tend to call a lot more. That's what you're up against so deal with that.

 

[hott_estelle]

New to this site, some of the replies here are incorrect, my guess is they are not that great at poker.

My guess is you have zero social and observational skills. Nice intro into the site.

 

[bob_tiger]

well first off i would definitely re raised all in pre flop and hope for the best. but i dont blame him for callign since he had the outs.

 

[bob_tiger]

My guess is you have zero social and observational skills. Nice intro into the site.

i have to agree with her on this one, because everyone has their own opinion and what you think might be right is not what the other person might think. You should probably just post what you would do and express your opinions instead of saying that.

 

[arcbishop]

i think u might of made a mistake takeing it in for the first place why bet with 2 callers on qq when u get to see more cards for less.,. expecally when u thought he might of had a king.

 

[pigpen02]

I'm sorry, searched my OFFICIAL DICTIONARY OF POKER, and found nothing that FE could stand for.

Please explain FE

I need a copy of that. Somehow I missed the deffinition of "Cake"! :icon_porc