Flush Draws

KMC1828

KMC1828

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I did a search, and was extremely surprised to find nothing on this.

Lately I've been having a HUGE problem with people putting all their money on a flush draw against me.

just as an example (dont have the real hand off hand, so ill just type what i can remember), this just happened 10 or so minutes ago in a $5.50 18 man SnG on FTP.

I'm in BB, and i get dealt QQ. it comes around to me, and someone had raised the minimum, and then someone else had reraised the minimum, putting it at near 400 (im sitting with a little over 3k in chips -- 7 players left, blinds in the 150 area). So when it gets around to me, i raise it to 910. the guy that reraised called.

flop comes 4h Tx Kh -- im first to act, and im sitting with a little over 2k left, so i bet 1.4k, he reraises all in, barely missing a beat. i call because for 1. i have about 600-800 left in chips, and i dont think he hit the flop.

he flips over A9h , turn is an A, river is not a Q. so im out.

Is there something i did wrong here? I think i played it fine, maybe a little gutsy with the K on board, but is there something i could have done to prevent him from putting in all his chips with a flush draw? (besides packet his internet =P )
 
amygrantfan

amygrantfan

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i think to decide, gotta know more info. like how close were you to being in the money etc. odds were in your favor to win, but not by that much. given the king on the flop, might have been worth not betting so aggressive to beign with?
 
KMC1828

KMC1828

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4 places get paid. i bet so aggressive because i had put him on JJ, so i went with my instinct, and i was partially right in that i had him beat, but i just put him on the wrong cards.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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Nothing you really can do about a donkey, it has happened to me on several occasions where a player will think that a flush draw is the nuts and bet all they have on it.
They have no understanding on poker maths.
 
D

Dashir

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Seven players remaining, it's already a massive pot. He has a flush draw plus the overcard, so 12 outs with two cards remaining (about 45% to win if puts you on a pair). Although you don't say, it sounds like he has you covered, so he'll still be in if it misses.

So he's not doing anything wrong - just deciding that this was his moment to gamble for the money. And to answer your original question, you can't stop him from doing that.
 
amygrantfan

amygrantfan

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i think that when you have to make a play for a pot, you just gamble and hope. sometimes it's a good bet and sometimes not. but at some point in a tournament, you gotta make a play and hope for some luck. at least that's my philosophy. perhaps thats why i always lose.
 
KMC1828

KMC1828

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he did have me covered, but not by much at all. maybe 500-600. i think my main problem with the entire hand is that he only had A9s, not that he caught the flush, but that he called a huge preflop RERAISE with A9s and then caught it.
 
amygrantfan

amygrantfan

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i think in internet poker, a lot of people think A9 is a very good starting hand, so it woudlnt surprise me that he called a huge raise. (again, this is prolly why i always lose)
 
Goldog

Goldog

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My only problem with is betting 2/3 of your chips. Either get em all in or make a bet which makes it appear you can fold (decide 1st if you will call an all-in or not). Not a big deal here, you're obviously commited, but why not just push?

Goldog
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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My only problem with is betting 2/3 of your chips. Either get em all in or make a bet which makes it appear you can fold (decide 1st if you will call an all-in or not). Not a big deal here, you're obviously commited, but why not just push?

Goldog
I agree. It has nothing to do with the flushdraw itself, and most likely would not have made a difference in this hand, but don't leave yourself with 700 chips in a pot that's going to be over 4000.

Basically, don't leave yourself in the "dead zone." I don't know if you're familiar with the M-value, but if you have any say in it, don't let it sink below 5. If a call will push you below that, you're usually better off pushing all-in.

(Then again, what do I know about tournaments.)
 
tosborn

tosborn

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You also need to look at this from villains perspective. If he had your range including the pair of Kings and under pairs they had proper odds to make the call.

Heres why:

3 outs for the higher pair A.
9 outs for the flush.
--------------------------
12 total outs

12 outs with two cards to come equals ~48% to win the hand.

Add in the % of the time that this flop missed you, and you are just continuation betting, villains play is probably profitable.

I don't condone getting all your chips in the middle on a draw. Depending on his read of the situation it might have been the right play.
 
Chris_TC

Chris_TC

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he did have me covered, but not by much at all. maybe 500-600. i think my main problem with the entire hand is that he only had A9s, not that he caught the flush, but that he called a huge preflop RERAISE with A9s and then caught it.
If I calculated the pot correctly, he had to call ~500 when the pot was ~1,700, so he was getting over 3:1 on the money and he had position on you. This is not a bad call (even though the original min-raise was terrible).

The flop leaves him with one overcard and a flush draw. He sees you betting a substantial amount, possibly trying to buy the pot and pushes his 12-outer.

What's important to understand here: this is an online tournament, the blinds move quickly, the pot is big and he has a good chance of winning it.

Also, he's spending ~2,000 to possibly win ~3,700. Considering that he has about a 45% chance of winning it's not that bad a bad move. After all, accumulating a big stack is valuable in every tournament.
 
J

joeeagles

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Lately I've been having a HUGE problem with people putting all their money on a flush draw against me.
Is there something i did wrong here?

The way you describe this, there is nothing that could have been done. Unfortunately you're right that people put their chips in on flush draws often doing it the wrong way and getting lucky. Although what is being said here is correct, there is no sense in leaving only 600-800 behind when the pot is 4k, that is not why you lost. You're opponent reraised knowing you had no FE and that is what I intend when I say players shove with their draws the wrong way.

The whole concept of shoving on a draw is based on having a chance to take down the pot right there. Had you checked rather than betting 1.4k then his all-in bet makes more sense (I still wouldn't do it but that doesn't make it incorrect), for the chance of forcing you to fold since you have FE. If worse comes to worse and you call he still has outs. But reraising all-in knowing you're committed to the pot and knowing he's behind is such a poor play that there are no words for it, even worse than calling your 910 PF reraise with A9s. I can tell you though that you won't lose this every time, I know it causes trouble and gets you knocked out of tournies every now and then, I experience that myself, but the times you end up taking their stacks will be more, trust me on that. It can be frustrating when you happen to be on the wrong end 3/4 times in a row (been there), but eventually you'll end up ahead.

Read my signature, it's all explained there.
 
J

joeeagles

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Add in the % of the time that this flop missed you, and you are just continuation betting, villains play is probably profitable.

I don't condone getting all your chips in the middle on a draw. Depending on his read of the situation it might have been the right play.

He reraised this to 910 PF, and villain is calling it with A9s. Since that was the 3rd raise before the flop, you can't dismiss his flop bet as a simple c-bet, there is no way you can be ahead here, and you really can't figure you're A to be 3 sure outs.

Knowing there is no FE, the shove here is insane, just a silly play that often players do hoping to catch. I'm not saying your numbers are off the mark Tosborn, but I'm quite sure villain never even attempted to put him on a range or thought his A could be good, honestly there is no reason to think that after a 910 reraise from the BB. He just shoved hoping to catch and he did.
 
dj11

dj11

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I'm sorry, searched my OFFICIAL DICTIONARY OF POKER, and found nothing that FE could stand for.

Please explain FE
 
tosborn

tosborn

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I'm sorry, searched my OFFICIAL DICTIONARY OF POKER, and found nothing that FE could stand for.

Please explain FE

FE = Fold Equity

He reraised this to 910 PF, and villain is calling it with A9s. Since that was the 3rd raise before the flop, you can't dismiss his flop bet as a simple c-bet, there is no way you can be ahead here, and you really can't figure you're A to be 3 sure outs.

Knowing there is no FE, the shove here is insane, just a silly play that often players do hoping to catch. I'm not saying your numbers are off the mark Tosborn, but I'm quite sure villain never even attempted to put him on a range or thought his A could be good, honestly there is no reason to think that after a 910 reraise from the BB. He just shoved hoping to catch and he did.

I absolutely agree with you that villain probably never put any thought to Hero's holdings here. Also, I'm not saying that I entirely agree with villain's play. I only wanted to point out that with a ~48% chance of winning this hand and minimum of 5% of the time that Hero is bluffing this could (you can call it a stretch) be a profitable play by villain.

What I was getting at is the fact that there are times in poker when both hero and villain could be making a profitable and only one can win the hand. (read: DON"T BE RESULTS ORIENTED)
 
J

jeffred1111

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The Fundamental Thoerom of Poker states that you profit when opponents play a hand differently than they would have had they seen your cards (and that the opposite is also true). Considering this, the true mistake of villain here is calling PF with A9 suited. When the flop came, his decision was debatable, but understandable since he had plenty of outs and a good chance to draw out on you.

The shove was silly, yes, since there were no fold equity whatsoever, but being a winner 48% of the time (and maybe more if here had a lower pair, such as 88) it still is semi-right (not profitable in any way tough, since you still put your money in most likely as an underdog against a made hand in a spot where it isn't necessary).


So keep your chin up, 52% of the time, you'll come out a winner in this situation, and any edge is a good edge in poker.
 
CaptnDaveCoulthard

CaptnDaveCoulthard

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Am Just Intrested, How Long Had You Been On The Table With The Villian, Had He Made Any Similar Flush Draw Moves Before?
 
D

DE4DLYFORCE

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on fulltilt there are alot of bad beats. for some reason i have noticed it more there than any other site. you did nothing wrong but people think is they have the nut flush draw they willllllll allllwwayyysss hit it so they move all in. those are bad players. remember that there are alot of odnekys comparedto good players who dont know any drawing hands they just want to play luck.
 
D

Dashir

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It wasn't a bad beat. The edge was very small. (BTW, its 48% to improve the villian's hand, but only 45% to win, since an Ace could then be beaten by a straight or a third queen or other oddities).

The only thing the villian really did wrong was call the reraise pre-flop. Having done that, the flop looks good to him. With pot as big as it was, it was a very resonable move in on his part post-flop.

Sit down with a odds calculator like this one: Poker Player - Texas Hold-em Odds Calculator. It will help you realize that alot of those so-called bad beats a) look alot worse then they really are and b) are actually justified by the odds vs pot-odds and that's just the way it works in poker.
 
KMC1828

KMC1828

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FINALLY I DID IT!!! I DIDNT GET OUT DRAWN!!!!

I had JJ, raised nearly 6x bb (blinds 100, i bet 600), 1 caller, flop was 4h 6h Qc

he checked, i bet 800, he raised me to about 2/3 of my stack, i reraised all in, he calls with A3h turn and river not aces or hearts. i told him to go to hell.
 
KMC1828

KMC1828

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i had to release my excitement some kind of way. i finally didnt get out drawn. he was a donk with A3h. *shrug*
 
G

Gavinski

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Fair enough I suppose, it can be annoying getting out drawn often, especially when it's by bad play.
 
KMC1828

KMC1828

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yeah. its just annoying how they dont respect (i guess thats the right word?) your bets enough to let go of their flush draw on an ALL IN
 
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