Fletchdad and Poker Zion: The journey.

[archangelzx]

I think you should just take a break dude, have a week without anything poker related and clear your head of poker. Come back ready and wanting to improve with a clear mind and start dominating. I took some time off after endless bad sessions and have come back better than ever.

Not trying to tell you what to do, but it worked for me, so give it a go.

 

[Arjonius]

I have no doubt you're capable of beating 10nl when you're on your game. However, I am also well aware from ample personal experience how easy it can be to fall below my A or even my A- game when trying to improve. So here are a few thoughts.

When I'm seriously working on my game, I assume there will be an adjustment period while I make changes and adapt the rest of my game to fit. During this time, I almost always play fewer tables, and quite often at a lower level. Perhaps this is something you can consider.

Different people have different optimal learning styles, but it's safe to assume that the more things you try to work on at once, the harder it will be and the longer it will take to get them fully integrated into your game.

Sorry if this one seems harsh. You don't have to answer here, but it seems important to know for your own benefit what you're actually doing in terms of "working your ass off". It's not just a matter of how much time you put in, but of how you use it. For example, watching a ton of videos is part of working on your game IF you think through the content, look for situations to apply the concepts, and actually do so. Without doing all three of these things, the time spent watching is more for entertainment than to work on your game. And yes, I'm speaking from experience. I still do it. I just don't fool myself as much.

As pointed out, your VPIP/PFR doesn't look like it should. This suggests that you're trying to build on a foundation that's not as solid as it should be. The straightforward thing to do is to get that part of your game in line first; i.e. to pull back temporarily from working on things at the next level.

 

[fletchdad]

Well, well.....

Thanks for the posts guys (and gals??)

I think the last 9 hours of wading in my pot of self pity has been enough.......

I am not, nor have I ever been, a quitter. I thought of contacting a mod and asking for my last post to be deleted, but, well, I am out of the closet, so fuk it. It where I was this morning.

I really appreciate the posts, y'all. A couple of people got in touch with me on skype and were very helpful - you know who you are, so thanks due there as well!!

After thinking about what I was feeling and what I posted, I decided to take a little break from playing, and then just get back to it. It may be a day, it may be 2 weeks, I dont know yet....I have invested too much time and effort to just walk away like a dog with its tail between its legs. Just not me. I decide to do, then I do.

People here have been so supportive, and I really like being part of a community like this one. And I hate quitting. I hate setting targets and giving up before I reach them. I am obviously doing something wrong, but quitting will not take care of the problem(s).

@AB: Yea, I see your point, but I feel like I know the basics well. I used to show better results, and the head honcho at PZ actually suggested I do the IL instead of the roots since I was gonna do the roots. I dont think its a lack of basics that is the root (no pun intended) of my problem. I am not sure of anything ATM, so you may be right but I have actually been feeling better about my game and mindset, so dont really know what to say or do. I have done a lot of work and studying so lack of fundamental knowledge is not a problem, maybe implementing it correctly is, however...???.....

@ Acky, thanks man. I like your advice, and after a break, I will want to maybe hook up on skype if you are into it. maybe even So We Evaluate A Ton. if you are into it and have the gumption..... (Get the code....lol, maybe I am getting my sense of humor back)


Thanks jchoop, your threads are inspiring to read. And Grind, yea, crime pays, but maybe I will leave it after all.. And Arch, thanks for the comments. I will take a break, I think that is unavoidable.

Well, just left and am already back.....hmmmmmmmm

Updates will come, but cant promise when.


Edit Arj (can I call you that) Just read your post, we were typing at the same time. Comments not harsh at all, well appreciated!! VPIP/PFR not the only spot, one of mayn I am sure, but when I get back in, will be the first point to work on.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Hi Fletch,

Sorry to hear about your troubles..... Couple of thoughts.....
First take a little time completely away from poker, doesn't have to be a lot of time, even just a couple of days may help, don't think about poker, don't study, don't play, nothing.....Hopefully you'll come back more refreshed and mentally ready for the game. When you are as frustrated as you appear to be currently its just really hard to make any meaningful progress. So you have to get out of that mindset first of all.

After that, I hate to say it, but I think you need to work on the basics a little bit. Even things as simple as vpip/pfr gap seem off. By position your stats are:

SB: 21/13
BB: 14/5
Early: 17/16
Mid: 19/17
CO: 21/17
Btn: 29/19

So.... It seems you play a nice, tight, aggressive game from early and mid positions. WTF happens from the button and in the blinds? Don't understand why your game is so off from some positions and yet seems Ok from others. Get more aggressive from the button, tighten-up from the blinds. Really basic, I know, but it still needs to be addressed.

Anyway, all this is just my opinion, but I hope you get your head straightened out and decide to stick with the game. If you really can't get past the frustration part, that's another issue altogether....

Edit: Doh....seems you were responding to the other posts while I was typing, oh well, seems like you're on the right track now/again. GL.

 

[xUnrated]

Glad to see you arent giving up, I think we all get that feeling, rungood,rungood,rungood, then get loss after loss after loss and we feel like what we have done is all for nothing. I recently took a little over a week off because poker didnt feel right for me at the moment and won my first tournament I played yesterday. Just avoid poker for a while, come back and look at your stats again. Pick a spot and work on it. Watch it improve. Then repeat. Best of luck to you. Its a tough game that beats us all to our knees sometimes. Getting back up is the key.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I think you put alot of pressure on yourself. And honestly if I were doing something similiar to yourself, I'm really not sure I'd be able to (I've 'thought about it in the past... more so awhile back compared to lately). I don't think I'd do well under that kind of pressure.

I play for different reasons > I try to play for 'fun'. There are days (much more so lately) where I stop & look at puter screen & think to myself, "Am I having fun? Am I enjoying myself here?" Lately the answer has been 'no' more often than 'yes'.

I too have put alot of time into studying the game of poker (a few different variants). I used to really like studying (watchin' vids., etc. etc.).... these days not so much.
One thing though I feel I've noticed about yourself is > you seem to want to really cram in a ton of info., & grab onto lots of different stuff (books, programs, etc.). Maybe piling in too much stuff at once? idk. I can relate to this as well (not so much lately..... errr.. well, hardly at all lately, lol). Improving one's game is a process. For me I find whatever helps to develop the intuitive process, & preferably if it's something I like doing. Lately that's just railing &/or sweating a few players. Other times it's coaching someone else ('teaching is a great way to learn').

When my head's not into it or I'm feeling pressure(d) I feel my progress grinds to a halt.

Aside from that (mental/emotional aspects) have you considered playing something different for awhile? (whether that be format or just a completely different game (ie. PLO, Omaha H/L, Stud.... )). I find this helps me out.
Another thing, have you considered playing on a different site? (some of the 'other' sites are ALOT softer than Stars (I don't know what Merge is like these days with all the US players on it... I rarely ever play on there). I realize that playing on another site might obviously not improve your game 'but' perhaps being a 'winning player' while playing on one of those other sites might help the mental aspect which in turn could help improve upon your game (If you can't crush on 888Poker or partypoker... then maybe quit ) Yah it may take a bit to get accustomed to the shytty software but might be worth it.

Just some of my thoughts. (keep in mind these days I predominantly play small-field MTT's,... recreationally grinding out the priv. tourney circuit, LoL.. there's a bunch of players doin' the same as I see same peeps in most of the games I play in on over a dozen different sites). They're definitely +ev. (P.S. I hate SNG's & grinding cash tables I find to be boring).

GL Jay. It sure would be great to see you reaping the benefits from all the time you've invested in the game.

 

[alaskabill]

Hi Fletch,

One more general thing to think about if I may: I've been working with a chess coach lately who makes a big point that improvement isn't so much about learning new information as it is about using what you do know effectively. He teaches that you should use 80% of your time working on your thought processes and applying your knowledge. Only 20% of your time should be spent on acquiring new knowledge. Of course this applies after you have left the begginer stage which you obviously have.

Obviously not directly about poker but I do think the idea is still applicable.

Good luck.

 

[CaptainKout]

Hey dude. Make sure to post about how you're overcoming the lack of poker drive. I've been treading water for almost two months and its killing me.

I've tried playing some limit holdem to break it up, but its sooooo boring. Might take up omaha but I don't want to cripple my bankroll while learning a new game. Maybe I should splurge on some coaching. I fear if I don't start running real good real soon I'm gonna just gonna let my br lay stagnant.

 

[alaskabill]

Hey dude. Make sure to post about how you're overcoming the lack of poker drive. I've been treading water for almost two months and its killing me.

I've tried playing some limit holdem to break it up, but its sooooo boring. Might take up omaha but I don't want to cripple my bankroll while learning a new game. Maybe I should splurge on some coaching. I fear if I don't start running real good real soon I'm gonna just gonna let my br lay stagnant.

Don't take this the wrong way but I see a lot of these posts about "lack of drive" or other forms of burnout and not wanting to play poker. Unless you're a pro or something, the answer is simple. If you don't feel like playing don't play. You're under no obligation. Someone like Jchoop who is actually paying his rent with poker, well, he'd better stay on the grind. If its just a fun, potentially profitable hobby, well if you want some time off take some time off. Really no need for soul searching IMO.

No offense meant or anything.

 

[CaptainKout]

No offense taken. I'm not in danger of hurting my lifestyle or anything, so it doesn't go as deep as the soul. I'm also not trying to jack his thread for my whining purposes.

My mistakes seem to sort of hit me over the head lately. Like "don't press the call button you idiot, damnit why'd I call that." Its rough on the psychy when it seems like you're one or two clear mistakes away from having a great session ever time out. I don't know if you've been in that spot. Maybe thats what Fletch is going through too. Maybe its a distinct part of the learning curve. When I had hands to post every session I felt like there was progress, now I feel like I haven't had an interesting hand in weeks and nothing to show for it in the bankroll department either.

I guess I'm kinda fishing for the ol' "get hit over the head enough times and you'll learn." Maybe something like "it just happens less and less as you get better."

 

[JCgrind]

=
Thanks jchoop, your threads are inspiring to read.

No problem, glad to help. GL

Someone like Jchoop who is actually paying his rent with poker, well, he'd better stay on the grind.

zzzzz fml lmao

 

[alaskabill]

Oh yeah, I kind of forgot that you binked the job. Congrats by the way.

/derail.

 

[fletchdad]

New update:

Since this is a thread about my poker progress and PZ, I thought I would add to my update.

After posting my thoughts about not wanting to continue poker, I was contacted by a few CC members per email or skype. I was also contacted personally by a Poker Zion admin. I wanted to just say that all of this has made me change my mind and I have decided to take a bit of time off (I have not set a definite time, but I am guessing a week or so, I will see how I feel), and then continue to learn and play.

I wont name any names, even tho that would probably be ok, but I will keep it private anyway. But the admin was very helpful and motivating. I got encouragement and tips and things to examine to find out where I am going wrong, above and beyond what I expected.

I must say this guy has been helpful and supportive from the get go, even more than I believe is normal. Or maybe not, perhaps this is the level of support a player gets on a regular basis. In any case, I want to express my thanks the the PZ crew, and since I have the desire and passion, I will take the help and support and do my best to achieve those goals I set for myself.

"You cant keep a good man down"...lol There is a saying in German which I believe is more fitting.. "Unkraut vergeht nicht". Roughly translated is something like "Weeds never die"

So, as Arnie said,,,, I'll be back.................

 

[WVHillbilly]

That's awesome about PZ! We already have this month's winner picked out and I'll be posting a thread later today. Sounds like these subscriptions are pretty great deals! Great to hear.

 

[Arjonius]

I guess I'm kinda fishing for the ol' "get hit over the head enough times and you'll learn." Maybe something like "it just happens less and less as you get better."

Improving as a player involves more than just getting better at how you play your cards, read opponents and their hands, etc. There's an entire mental / emotional side that many people under-rate in terms of its importance.

For example, if you get better at reading and can put your opponents on narrower ranges, but continue putting money into pots when you know you shouldn't, you limit how much you benefit from your improved reading ability. Depending how often and when you do this, you may not even benefit at all.

 

[duggs]

Improving as a player involves more than just getting better at how you play your cards, read opponents and their hands, etc. There's an entire mental / emotional side that many people under-rate in terms of its importance.

For example, if you get better at reading and can put your opponents on narrower ranges, but continue putting money into pots when you know you shouldn't, you limit how much you benefit from your improved reading ability. Depending how often and when you do this, you may not even benefit at all.

extremely good point

 

[JCgrind]

not sure if this has been mentioned already, if it has i mustve missed it... what stake are you grinding fletch?

 

[fletchdad]

not sure if this has been mentioned already, if it has i mustve missed it... what stake are you grinding fletch?

10 nl

 

[fletchdad]

not sure if this has been mentioned already, if it has i mustve missed it... what stake are you grinding fletch?

Played my first session back. 3 tables. You were on one, if you have the same SN at stars. A guy called to the ruver on a 4 flush board with a GS no FD.....

3 hands later I have KJ and bet to river, KTx flop, A turn, I am thinking this guy calls with any K or any T, then OTR shoves for the lats 15BB and flips AK.... GG

I left the table after that, had a hand on another table with KK and get all in vs a A6o,.... turn A GG

Great first day back..lol

 

[JCgrind]

Played my first session back. 3 tables. You were on one, if you have the same SN at stars. A guy called to the ruver on a 4 flush board with a GS no FD.....

3 hands later I have KJ and bet to river, KTx flop, A turn, I am thinking this guy calls with any K or any T, then OTR shoves for the lats 15BB and flips AK.... GG

I left the table after that, had a hand on another table with KK and get all in vs a A6o,.... turn A GG

Great first day back..lol

Ha really? Ye im jchoop on stars, whats your sn? How'd my game look lol. But seriously, we could do a sweat if you like... So far I'm creamin 10nl.

As a side note, when you say you saw me today, I assume you mean like 5hrs ago. My time that was 6-8pm and let me tell you, games are shocking around those times. If you can, look to jump on in 8hrs time for up to 6 hrs, you'll find the games and a ton better

 

[micromachine]

Hey FD. Sorry to hear about your recent downswing. Having one myself right now and it's very frustrating indeed. Keep you head up, it wont last much longer.

Rungood ----> FD

 

[JCgrind]

case and point, both of these are for today. Ive noticed this as a regular trend for the past month, at any stake level. games are usually good around now too (its 1.20am here atm). not sure if its correct but something to do with ideal times for UK ive been told...

first sesh ~9.00am to 11.00am
second sesh ~6.00pm to 8pm

EDIT: oops didnt upload pic lmao

 

[JCgrind]

^^

as you can see, roughly same session times, hands, bang on $EV in both, and playing almost identical stats wise. just a ton more free lunches early on. plus waitlists arent fkn jam packed in the morning like they are at night for me...

 

[fletchdad]

Ha really? Ye im jchoop on stars, whats your sn? How'd my game look lol. But seriously, we could do a sweat if you like... So far I'm creamin 10nl.

As a side note, when you say you saw me today, I assume you mean like 5hrs ago. My time that was 6-8pm and let me tell you, games are shocking around those times. If you can, look to jump on in 8hrs time for up to 6 hrs, you'll find the games and a ton better

Yea, it was you. about 11.am CET. My best times for playing are (CET) from 9 till around 2.30, then after 9 PM till maybe 1 or 2. I have a family so when my daughter is in school and the wife at work, I can play. Nights are better for players and tables, but since I get up mornings at 6:30am, it varies with my concentration. Weekends, if I am not gigging, I have more afternoons and later in the night.

I only was at the table with you for 8 hands. lol.

Hey FD. Sorry to hear about your recent downswing. Having one myself right now and it's very frustrating indeed. Keep you head up, it wont last much longer.

Rungood ----> FD

Thanks MM

(And welcome in.... wink wink)

 

[micromachine]

Imo games are best UK time (WET) between 6pm and 10pm.